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Before getting to the episode: Krispin is facilitating an online workshop for therapists! It’s called “Helping Clients Heal From Unhealthy Religious Systems” and will focus on therapeutic considerations and approaches for clients who come from religious authoritarian families. If you’re a therapist, or know a therapist who might be interested, you can follow this link to find out more!
TW: corporal punishment, spanking, mention of sexual abuse
In today’s podcast episode, titled How Do You Set a Boundary in a Family Like this? we discuss what makes setting boundaries so difficulty in religious authoritarian parenting family dynamics. There are a few ways to access this content: you can find and listen to the STRONGWILLED podcast here or wherever you normally listen to podcasts. Or, you can read the transcript below.
How Do You Set a Boundary in a Family Like this?
Krispin: Welcome y'all to the Strongwilled podcast where we are claiming autonomy after religious authoritarian parenting. I know it's reclaiming,
DL: I like that.
Krispin: but for some of us, it's like “I never had autonomy in the first place.” So I was never allowed to practice autonomy.
DL: There we go. Can you stand in your own power? Ooh, can you?
Krispin: it is Thanksgiving
DL: Can you? There is a really intense cultural holiday that is predicated on myths of settler, you know, colonizers coming up.
Krispin: I thought you were gonna say myths of families needing to be together
DL: That too! How interesting that this overlaps!
Krispin: And there is this pressure to pretend like a huge election didn't just happen and that everything's fine.
DL: Wow. What a normal time we're having, Krispin. What a normal time.
Krispin: What a great time to head into the holidays.
DL: Yeah, oh my gosh. So let's just acknowledge everybody's probably feeling feelings, and for our Patreon we actually did release an episode where you and I process the election. You can join our Patreon for like four bucks a month if you want to listen to that. Now, today we are talking about estrangement. You wrote this amazing chapter about this on our substack that people can read, but we wanted to, of course, make some podcast content about that. Is it OK if really quick if we talk about sort of the plan?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Which is today we're talking about boundaries,
Krispin: Which is related to estrangement, but doesn't always have to be.
DL: It doesn't have to be. It can be much bigger, actually, and a kind of a foundational concept that many of us did not learn about. If you were born into white evangelicalism, if you were raised in white evangelicalism, you know what I mean? And then you and I will be making podcast episodes where each of us detail our own personal story of family estrangement.
And we have different stories. And that's something I just want to say really quick is that everybody has a really unique situation. There's some commonalities, but when we put out a call for like, do you have questions about estrangement? Do you have questions about this? You know, people came back with such specific questions about their family situations. And it's impossible to cover it all. So we're just kind of going to focus on boundaries and then our personal stories for the podcast.
Krispin: Right. And we haven't talked about this, but I would love to do a Q&A at some point where we're just like gathering the things like kind of the common questions that we hear, you know, I guess an FAQ, if you will.
DL: You know, it’s funny because I'm very overwhelmed by the questions and you're like, no, no, no. I can totally speak to this, but you're the marriage and family therapist. So I'm like, that makes sense that I'm just like, wow, it sounds complicated!
Krispin: Uh huh. I mean, I do end up feeling a little overwhelmed 'cause there are so many different dynamics. But I think as we talk through some of these specific dynamics and boundaries, it will give some clarity to a framework to have further conversation about it. So I mean, I am really excited to talk about estrangement because a lot of people are like, should I go no contact? Should I go low contact? Should I keep things as they are? Should I figure out, you know, all these things? But I think this conversation about boundaries comes first often.
Krispin: I know, I was thinking we should clarify boundaries because in my Bible college they talked about, yeah, enmeshed families are families that don't have boundaries, which means they don't have rules.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: so boundaries in evangelicalism often was just like rules. So the idea of a boundary is that there's somebody that's in control of everything and is saying how things should be, which is not the same as a boundary. A boundary is: I'm allowed to make my own decisions. This is my own personhood, the limits of what I'm responsible for and what I am allowed to do or not do. I don't know. I mean, that's like a rough definition. How would you describe it?
DL: Well, I don't know how I would describe boundaries. Is it okay if I just really quickly launch into like how I slowly came to understand the concept of boundaries and how important they were and how ill-equipped I was to implement boundaries? Because I think this might resonate with some people listening if you grew up like me.
So I remember, I don't know how many years ago it was—four years? I picked up this book by Lindsey Gibson called Self Care for Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. That's a long title. Okay. And I picked up this self-care book. I don't know why. I think it was on sale. Um, and I read it and, the part that stood out to me was the parts about boundaries, because this was a totally foreign concept to me
Krispin: mm hm
DL: and it was like, the beginning of the book is sort of being like, this is what an emotionally immature parent is like, and I was like, Oh,
Krispin: check, check, check
DL: check, check, check, you know, so I felt really seen there. Then it was like, Okay, so just so you know, DNA is not a life sentence. That's like chapter six or something in this book.
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: Um, just because you were born into a relationship, like you're a human and you get to determine what that relationship looks like, right? We do this for marriages. We do this for friendships. We do this for working relationships. Same applies to, you know, your parents like you get to set the terms. And then she's like but that's probably really hard for you if you grew up with emotionally immature parents.
Krispin: Hard to even believe that you are able to, or like, that you’re allowed to do that.
DL: Well, one of the reasons it's so hard to set boundaries if you grew up with emotionally immature parents is because you've been trained from birth to put their feelings above your own. So the number one thing you can do to start to get to a place where you can set boundaries with folks like that in your life is you have to start putting yourself first. And she makes it really simple.
She's like, what are your preferences and what makes you feel safe?
Krispin: mm hm
DL: That's the core of boundaries is, are you able to honestly state your preferences and honestly talk about what you need to feel safe. And I feel like that was so simple and yet so devastating because I had to learn like I have a right to that. I have a right to honestly say what I need. And I also had to face the heartbreaking reality that there's no room for that in my relationship with my parents.
Like they've overridden that so much. And in fact, they raised me specifically so that I would override that in myself and always cater to them.
So it was, it's, so that's just my little piece about learning about what the core boundaries are, but. To me, this also brings in the extra element that I want to bring in throughout this podcast episode, which is there's so much grief to this conversation. We do not take this lightly. We do not take this glibly. We will just be humans and have fun and laugh and whatever, but there is so much grief at the root of this conversation on boundaries because it brings up like, ah, my parents don't want me to have boundaries. Like, that sucks!
Krispin: And for some people, it is sitting with: do I choose to live my own life and that means losing either a large aspect of connection with my parents or totally lose connection with my parents. And there's a lot of grief there. Or do I continue the way that it's been going, but you know, there's consequences there as well.
The other thing that I want to say, because this is, it's such a tender topic. It's so overwhelming. And I also want to acknowledge that there are a lot of vulnerable people who are in a position where they really maybe are dependent on parents for housing or finances or whatever. Because this is what happens in evangelicalism, right?
There’s so much enmeshment that your parents encourage you to go to a ministry school that didn't actually give you any tools so that you could actually make money outside of the church. So then you end up in this position where it's like, yeah, I need my parents for this or that. Um, and that doesn't mean that you can't, you know, totally can't set boundaries, but I just want to acknowledge that it is like we're saying it's different for everyone.
And I know that for some people they're in a really vulnerable place. So just wanted to acknowledge that as well.
Krispin: So we are asking this question, what is a boundary in this conversation? I'm thinking of a boundary is staking out your own individuality and your own choices. It's differentiating from the family unit. So examples of this would be things like:
I'm not coming to the family reunion.
I'm not okay with you telling me how to parent my kids.
When you raise your voice, I'm going to leave the room.
I won't go to church with you.
Stuff like that.
DL: Wow, okay. You're just busting out some actual examples. I think you already kind of touched on this, but we recognize there's a wide variety of situations how has this been dealt with in the past? Like, estrangement is not a new thing. My mom was estranged from her family. But they didn't call it that, right? She just moved across the country and barely communicated with them. Does that make sense? So I'm like, this has been happening. Now it's becoming a “trend” because this is, you know, the way to popularize it (in legacy media).
Krispin: And also, some people have theorized that it has to do with technology as well. If you move across the country and long-distance phone calls are expensive, it’s like, okay, I guess I’ll see you every like three years for Christmas when you can make it out here. And now it’s like, oh it’s Thanksgiving, let’s make sure to have a phone call. And that sort of thing.
DL: That's interesting! But yeah, I think in the past, people just moved away from their families, right? And that was sort of one solution. And Lindsey Gibson actually talks about that. It's like, but there's plenty of people who can't do that for whatever reason. And so that's when boundaries becomes really important, right?
Krispin: Yeah, definitely. And I think it should go in here somewhere that I gave examples of statements you could make to set a boundary, but you don't always have to make a boundary explicit. So boundaries, practicing your own choices and individuality might be something like, I've been calling you every week and now I'm going to transition to calling you once a month and, um, if you comment on it, like I'm just gonna be like, yeah life's really busy, right?
So you don't always have to make boundaries explicit.
DL: Okay. Yeah, and what about internal boundaries?
Krispin: Right, exactly. I mean, I think that's sort of an example of an internal boundary where it's like I'm not, I'm not saying this clearly to you. I'm just gonna make my own choice. That could be something like, last time I talked about like deconstructing faith, you got really anxious and attacked everything that I said.
So I've just made a decision with myself, that is not a topic I'm going to talk about with you. And I'm not saying, hey, I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore. I'm just, because in a lot of these settings, it's like, if I say, hey, I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore. The response is going to be, but that's the wrong choice.
We need to keep talking, whatever it is. Right? So. So it's totally valid to say like, within myself, I'm making that choice.
DL: We're going to camp out on this for a little bit.
What is a boundary? One thing that is interesting is that if you grew up with your parents never modeling that it's okay to set boundaries with them, obviously that's going to show up in other areas of your life, so you've probably gotten into some situations. Some situationships in your life, right?
And as you get older, perhaps you're drawn to relationships where you can slowly start to introduce boundaries from the very beginning, right? Like, as I have, so this is important to me as someone who was diagnosed autistic at age 38. Now that I know I'm autistic, and also, this even brings in some other stuff, like, I'm non-binary, right?
Krispin: mm hm
DL: Me saying like, hey, my pronouns are they/them is a way of putting up a boundary almost like, are you able to engage in this kind of world where we're not obsessed with the patriarchy or not? And you know, when people can't, do that. It's like, well, that's on you. Um, not me. Right. And so that's an interesting thing.
Like even also the autism, right. Just having friends where I can honestly say like, hey, I'm overstimulated, hey, I can't make it to our hangout. And I just know they're not going to guilt me or shame me or make me feel bad about myself because they know I'm autistic. They know that if I could be there, I would.
And I, you know, give the same back to them. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes, totally.
DL: And so the more I'm in these like healthy relationships, the more jarring it is to try and force myself back into these relationships where honestly, my parents are very nostalgic for a version of me that didn't know how to have boundaries or even preferences of any way, shape, or form, you know, so it's it's pretty jarring to go back to that. So maybe that's another way to think about this boundary conversation is how are you already implementing those with other people?
The flip side of that is, and I think you already brought this up. I'm betting you have tried to set boundaries with your family, with your parents, and sometimes siblings, sometimes aunt and uncles, sometimes pastors, sometimes, you know, we can, we can broaden it out, but I'm betting you have tried to set boundaries.
So let's just stop for a moment. Think about how did that go for you?
Krispin: Right, exactly. And I think that is what is so confusing and frustrating about this conversation sometimes is people will say, yeah, just set boundaries. Like I had a therapist 10 years ago that was like, yeah, just set boundaries with your parents. Just tell them what you need. And there was no acknowledgement
DL: Oh, everybody is just shuddering as they're listening to this.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Just do it. Just set a boundary with your parents!
Krispin: Exactly. And so there's no understanding or no acknowledgement of the backlash that happens when you try to engage in your own autonomy.
DL: Yeah. And so again, I'm so sorry to keep harping on this. The Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents books. All of them were so helpful to me because it points out the patterns. It's less like, oh, my parents respond in this way to me. And that really sucks. It's really isolating, really confusing, really painful.
And her books in particular just helped me be like emotionally immature people just have a playbook and it doesn't change. And so boundaries are a way of basically moving on, right? And learning to protect yourself and honor yourself around people who are never going to do that for you. And that sucks.
If that's your parents, oh my god does it suck to recognize they are not interested in your safety. They're not interested in your emotions. They're not interested in how they make you feel. All they care about is how you make them feel.
Krispin: Oh my gosh. I mean, as you're talking about this, I was thinking about what you were saying about your group of friends. I think about my friends that are like, yeah, if you need to cancel last minute because stuff's going on with your family and your family needs you, that's fine. You know, but I was thinking particularly about this friend of mine, um, who was a boomer, my dad's age.
And I remember we met for coffee one morning and he was just like, Man, I love hanging out with you, but like take off whenever you need. I'm retired. Like my life is, you know, like I, I'm easy going, but he's like, I know that a lot of people need you. There's something about that that was really beautiful of just like, Hey, like you are—really what he was saying is like practice your own autonomy. You're free to stay, you're free to leave. I like you, but I don't need you to stay for a certain amount of time for me to feel good, right?
DL: Yes. Yes. Yeah, so I think that what's hard is going, going back to like, what is a boundary? To even ask that question, you sort of have to say like, what is a normal relationship people have with other humans? And that is you let them live their own lives. You trust them when they talk about their inner world. You care about how you are impacting them. And for so many of us, we were not raised with that.
Krispin: Well, and we're going to talk about some of the reasons, because this is part of white evangelicalism.
DL: Oh my, it's baked into the system. And therefore, their views on estrangement, and I would also say reconciliation, are so not it — they're very unhealthy, that there's no way to engage with them on how to repair in a way that will actually work because their views of repair are predicated on the adult child must understand how sinful they are, because that's how they relate to God and reconciliation.
Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yeah. Totally.
Krispin: here's what a boundary is. Right. And as I was reading those examples, you might have had that reaction to say like, I'm not going to go to church with you. Or like, stop telling me how to parent my kids.
You might have a reaction of like, I could never say that.
DL: Could we say them again? Could you say those boundaries again?
Krispin: Yeah, I'm not coming to the family reunion is one. I've had to set that boundary before and it did not go well. Um, I'm not okay with you telling me how to parent my kids. When you raise your voice, I'm going to leave the room. I won't go to church with you.
Here's another example: going to read a book in a spare bedroom during a holiday weekend at a family gathering. For some people it's like, I can't even, like I need to be with the family, this is the norm, you know. That's like a little way of practicing autonomy. Um, and then the other one is, uh, I'm only going to talk with you on the phone once a month instead of once a week.
And again, that's something that you could say, but you could also just do. And if they comment on it, you're like, yeah, I'm busy. I'm sorry. I like connecting with you, but this is what I have time for. You don't have to explain yourself. You don't have to apologize.
DL: Yeah, I mean, when we've talked about it before, I sort of get stuck sometimes. Like a boundary is something you're telling people, I'm not going to deal with this anymore. And you always try and bring it back into like, well, what do you actually have control over? Right? You can't control other people's behaviors. All you can do is control your own. So is it okay if we just chat that through for a minute because I get confused.
Krispin: And I think, as I was thinking about that, things like, I'm not going to the family reunion, right? That I can do. But when you think about something like, I'm not okay with you telling me how to parent my kids, that really is telling them to stop a behavior. Yeah.
DL: And what if they keep doing it?
Krispin: Right. What if they keep doing that, is then you figure out what is next for you. You might need to say, um, if you keep telling me how to parent my kids, I'm not going to come around or I'm not going to bring them around.
I mean, I think that would be like for a lot of parents like, you know, they would freak out, um, but it might just be like, hey, I'm not okay with this. And if it continues to happen, then you can have this conversation that's like, hey, every time I come around, this happens.
DL: Yeah, and I think even this example, right, of, trying to tell your parents hey, please don't nitpick my parenting or please don't try to parent my kids, especially in ways that don’t align with my values. I'm like, this is a conflict that has happened in a lot of families. And I just want to say really quick, you don't have to say explicit, boundaries with people, you can work on, you know, that internal boundary, which is, I'm parenting the way I believe is right.
I do not, you know, want my parents to do this. However, if you tell them that they might freak out, you might be conditioned to care more about their emotions. Therefore, you know, you're going to be devastated, you're going to be anxious, you're going to be upset, like, this is where the low contact, no contact stuff comes in because for some of us, it's so hard to deal with the fallout of our emotionally immature parents because we've been socialized to care so much about them.
So I know we're going to be talking about that coming up. So I just want to say if you're feeling really anxious, like Krispin and DL are saying, I have to say these things. No, we're not saying that at all. These could all be internal boundaries that you then decide. What happens for most of us, we stop hanging out with people who will not stop trying to control us.
Okay? That's just the baseline. And people who always try and control others are often shocked when they're alone and miserable, but it's like, no, that's, that's on you, babe. You never once stopped trying to control and you never once thought about, you know, the emotional well-being and state of other people. So I just wanted to say that.
Krispin: Yes, totally. And I think that's just throughout this whole thing. We're not prescribing anything and I mean, I will,
DL: You can quiet quit is what I'm saying.
Krispin: Right. And I will, we'll share some of our experiences, but just so you know, for me, it wasn't like I set boundaries and things changed. It was like, I tried to set boundaries. I did set boundaries. And I got backlash and I got tired of that backlash. I don't talk to my parents anymore because of that. So, I mean—
DL: I mean, unfortunately, this is typical, right? With abusive systems and abusive relationships, it often takes quite a while for someone to fully leave, to fully disengage, and they get sucked back into the circle. And so sometimes when you are setting boundaries, it actually, you know, starts the cycle up all over again.
Krispin: Yeah, and it can go different ways. Sometimes some parents, it's like, okay, this was sort of upsetting, but I can get on board,
DL: Yeah
Krispin: And then some parents are like, no, I'm going to continually try to like control you. So, but yeah, on that topic of control, um, in white evangelicalism, there is a right way. So diversity, one right way, one way, one way, right?
DL: One right way.
Krispin: One right way. So diversity of thought, action, belief, or choice is sinful or wrong. So, right. I was listening to someone the other day and they were like, yeah, families, a group of people where they believe different things and they take different approaches to life. And I'm like, that is not the vision of religious authoritarian parenting family.
DL: No no no no no. No no no no. It is like everybody believes the same. Everybody falls in line. Everyone has their roles, right? So that's just a philosophical difference. This idea of—the idea that someone could make choices for themselves doesn't fit. Which is a tragedy. it really is! I was born into this world, and I didn't have a choice to become a Christian. I didn't have a choice to become like this prototypical white Christian woman. Like, I didn't have any choice. And if my parents had their way, I would never have that choice. That's just the truth of it.
Krispin: Right, that’s the thing is when we talk about boundaries, we're operating from this assumption that it's okay for you to make decisions for your life.
DL: Newsflash, it is!
Krispin: Right? And in this evangelical world, it's not, it's even stuff. I was thinking about the, um, this idea of like God going after the lost, right? Like, even if they don't know that they're lost, right. That is controlling in the context of like, you know, like, all right. Like you're deciding to not follow God, but I know that God ultimately will bring you back or whatever it is. Right? It's just like—
DL: So many progressive Christians told me that, by the way.
Krispin: Right, exactly
DL: I left and I was like, no, I don't consent to God.
Krispin: Right, exactly
DL: So stop talking to me about it.
Krispin: Right, it's really this idea of like, people can't make good decisions for themselves.
DL: And God knows better and you know better because you're a Christian. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Krispin: Mm hm. I want to read this quote from this guy Ed Welch. He is part of the Christian Counseling and Educational Foundation. He wrote this book, When God is Big and People are Small.I remember seeing this like around our Bible college and in my masters program.
DL: I'm already annoyed at this man.
Krispin: He says, “Breaking relational boundaries is fundamental to life in Christ.” This is a counselor saying this, a therapist.
DL: What does that mean? Okay.
Krispin: “We repent of the personal boundaries we instinctively erect and we pray for deeper insight into our oneness as we are one body with Christ as the head. The zeal for unity and the tearing down of interpersonal boundaries are distinguishing marks of the church.”
DL: Or a cult.
Krispin: Or a cult. Basically,
DL: Isn’t that literally what cults do?
Krispin: Yes. He's saying like you are, it is anti-Christian to have your own boundaries to say no. I mean, this is in the context of the article I read. He said like, it's saying no to god Is sinful so we need to say yes, we need to say yes to the head to the leadership to the authority.
DL: And the parents in these types of homes view themselves as God.
Krispin: Exactly.
DL: So, real quick, Christian, Christian, wow, I've never called you Christian before!Okay, really quick, Krispin, um, how did it go? Like, the first time you told your dad no.
Krispin: Oh my gosh. He got, well, I mean, we should start—Before that I tried to say no and I couldn't.
DL: Well exactly. That’s what I’m trying to get at.
Krispin: Yes, I would, fawn, I would write, and then we were like, DL needs to be a part of these conversations, and then. He did not like that and he would mock you.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And then, I got to this point of like I would just sort of do a gray rock thing But I would like set a boundary and he would punish me like emotionally. He would give me the silent treatment and he also would emotionally punish our kid.
DL: Yeah, and I think what's really interesting tying this evangelical theology is, and now this is gonna be really depressing, so buckle up everyone. Um, your dad, and people who are drawn to something like white evangelicalism and remain in something that is a patriarchal, authoritarian, high control religion, they really do like the part of identifying with the god character,
Krispin: Yes. Mm hmm.
DL: and they view their children as like, their minions
Krispin: My dad loved being the wisest person. Every interaction we had, he was like, I, you know, that was the assumption. It was like, I know better than you. I'm going to tell you what's right. I'm going to help, you know, guide your life in the way that's going to be good for you because I know better than you.
DL: I know, so this is a tough pill to swallow because as children, we don't want to think this about our caregivers. We really don't. But the types of folks who are drawn to these worlds and who remain in them are deeply unhealthy. Not only do they not want you to ever set boundaries with them, they actually truly believe they are the best thing in the world. Like this is their psychological defense mechanism, right? And so that's another tough part of this conversation is, is parents who find themselves estranged from their adult children. They, honestly identify with God, with Jesus, and, and view this as like persecution for being so great and for being amazing.
And therefore there's no reason for self-reflection. And, and that's why it gets pretty depressing. It's like, how do you set boundaries with people like that?
Krispin: Right, that don't believe boundaries should exist.
DL: You kind of have to go low or no contact. Not have to. But that's a natural outcome of someone who has shown over and over and over again they believe it is their divine right to control their children no matter what age those children are.
Krispin: Right, exactly. Dobson talks about that. MacArthur talks about that. This is all throughout the religious authoritarian parenting is this idea of like, if you parent your kids in this way, when you grow up, they will respect you. They will listen to you. You will be their confidant. You, and this element of like, you will be able to have influence over them.
DL: That’s the promise.
Krispin: And there's this real, you know, I think privilege, maybe that's not the right word, but like it's a it is this assumption Of, um, of the parent of like, I have a special role in your life where I get to help you make decisions or choices, right? Rather than you practicing your own autonomy.
The other thing that I think comes up a lot is I was thinking about this interaction I had with my mom once where basically I was like, yeah, the family is really dysfunctional and has treated me really poorly. And she said, well, what are you going to do? Just not talk to your family forever. You have to come back at some point.
DL: You have to.
Krispin: And I was like, I don't. And I think for her, like I could just see her face shift, but that tells you my mom is not a particularly controlling person. She's part of a controlling family.
DL: Well she's an enabler.
Krispin: She's an enabler and she's part of and for her to like, she was like, oh, this is how I thought it operated is like your family treats you however you want, but you don't have anybody else in the world.
DL: You don't have anyone else in the world.
Krispin: And then if we think about homeschoolers, which is a big portion of this population, like you, right? That further isolates you. And it really is like, yeah, I don't have, you know, these enmeshed Christian families. There is so many, so much of this of like, you don't, you don't invest outside of your family.
So it does become true in a way of like, yeah, who else do I have other than my family. Which then for a lot of people, it's like, Oh, maybe I need to stop investing in this relationship and find, you know, chosen family or different relationships, but
DL: Okay, this is a really heavy point. So I just want to kind of sit with it for a second, because what you are bringing up is, is a pattern that happens in these families. And again, if you're raised in it, it's so normalized, but it's actually not normal to teach little children that they are sinful wretches, whose wills need to be broken, to be hit and punished and told it's love to be controlled, to never have any autonomy in your gender, sexuality is so many different preference, right?
None of this is actually normal. This is an authoritarian patriarchal cult, right? And so that is what we're talking about. And a part of those cult dynamics is basically beating down a person's like sense of self and self-esteem so that they never leave, right?
And they're told over and over again, this is the best family ever. This is the best religion ever. This church is so welcoming and we'll take care of you and we'll bring you a casserole if you get sick in the hospital. So don't ever leave.
Krispin: Well, I was thinking about when we left a church several years ago, you were out of the country at this point, but the pastor came over and, um, we were talking about, um, the issue of gay marriage. We were talking about gay marriage and he was like, yeah, if you don't like our stance, you can go to any other church.
That's fine. But at this church, we take the Bible seriously, right? So there's this false, like, yeah, you can practice autonomy. And then the message under it is like, but if you do practice autonomy, you are at odds with God.
DL: You’re not actually a real Christian who wants to take the Bible seriously. Yeah. That's, that's an interesting example just from the church dynamic, but the way this plays out is that people like myself, I really struggle with believing that people will like me, that people will want to hang out with me, that I will have community because my family has told me in so many ways, like directly to my face, but also passive aggressive that who would like me except my family, right?
That's all I have. I'm a weird little intense little gremlin. You know, that's kind of how they view me now. And so it's just like, wow, it's so devastating to realize this is one of the mechanisms of control is to make you feel as if nobody will like you outside of your family. This is just a really common dynamic that happens in so many toxic families, but it honestly happens a lot in white evangelicalism.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, it just, it really is. The odds are set against you. The whole system is designed to keep people to accept maltreatment.
DL: Yeah, and so we are talking a lot about parents but this can happen with siblings this can happen with friends, old friends, you know what I mean. Just this is another part of the boundaries work is paying attention to how people make you feel. It kind of is as simple as that.
Krispin: Hmm. Hmm.
DL: If they’re constantly making you feel like, ooh, did I say the wrong thing? Are they mad at me? Just pay attention to this stuff.
Krispin: That's true. But I think we've been talking about like, what are some potential boundaries, but I think it would be good to like pause and, and just ask this question:
How do you set a boundary? And something for me that was really significant working with a therapist once was they were like, okay, what boundary do you want to set? And I was like, well, I think my parents could do this or that. And they were like, no, not what are your parents capable of? What can you expect from them?
But what do you want? For, for me it was, I want you to stop spending time with family members who enabled my own sexual abuse. Right? That seems like a pretty reasonable ask, but in my mind at that time, maybe that's too intense.
Krispin: In my mind I was like, they’re never going to cut off contact with these family members that enabled my abuse.
So why should I even ask? And so I think a lot of times what we do is we when we think like, how can I set a boundary, we automatically go through that filter, right? Or for someone, it might be like, I want my parents to like celebrate my queerness. And then it's like, but that will never happen. Therefore, I can't want it.
I can't long for it. I can't desire it. Um, but I think that's a really good place to start, you know, asking yourself like, yeah, what is it that I need? And maybe there's a maybe an alteration of it. Um, but it is figuring out like, what is the thing that I need and then sticking to it. So, you know, on some like maybe less intense examples would be like, I don't want you to come to my house unannounced.
I was gonna say, holler out to all the people whose parents moved close to them because they did move somewhere else or whatever, you know, however it worked out, but right? We're such a close family, so we need to live like within a mile of each other.
DL: I’m so jealous of people who don’t ever have to set this boundary. Because we had to!
Krispin: I remember when, when we were first married, we lived at the house that was, it was like the caretaking house for the church where your dad was a pastor,
DL: a mega church, yeah
Krispin: which meant that, like, we would be having sex in the middle of the day.
DL: Which we liked to do!
Krispin: Yes. And your dad would be like, it's my lunch break. I'm going to wander over and open the door to your house. Like, so we would like hear the front door open in the middle of us having sex. And we had a conversation like, dad, you can't, you need to text, you can't just walk into our house. So, you know, but, um, the response might be like, what do you mean? You don't want to be close?
Well, and you just say like, no, I'm just asking, text me before you come, right? Um, that would be an example, you know, another example would be like, if you don't use my correct pronouns, I'm not going to spend time with you. It could be, I don't want to hear your advice on my career. So the, those are examples of boundaries and then coming back to it when it's crossed.
Right. Um, so it's, it's actually fairly simple. What's not simple is the backlash you get when you do these things.
DL: Right. Because your parents or whoever are probably trying to take this as like, you’re trying to control me, they’re usually baffled, they’re so hurt, they might get angry.
So that’s where it really starts to like, shit starts to really hit the fan once you start to set boundaries, and that's why when people go low or no contact, it's usually they've, they've tried setting boundaries and those boundaries have been ignored.
Plus all these childhood dynamics come up, right, where you're back into this phase of having to care for everybody else's emotions. When you just simply ask, like, could you respect my pronouns? Then it turns into this whole thing. Right. And so I think I'm feeling a little pressure with this podcast episode to kind of like bring it back to the holidays.
Krispin: Uh huh…
DL: Um, I think the holidays are really charged because so many people, like, don't want to go no contact, don't want to go low contact. You don't want to have to experience the grief, right? Of severing attachment with your caregivers, with your community, with your church community, whatever. But the holidays are just such a time where we see our boundaries not respected over and over again.
And I want to reframe that and say, it's actually a really good time for us to say, look, we've tried, it hasn't been respected, and I am deserving of being around people where I can be my true self, where I can experience safety in my body, and I can actually like, have some fun, you know what I mean? So, I don't know, I'm just feeling like, if people are feeling overwhelmed, it's like, yeah, you have a right to.
However, it's also a great time to be like, here's how I've tried to set boundaries, here's how they haven't been respected. And I get to choose what I do moving forward with this information. But we need to stop running away from the reality of how our boundaries are not respected by our parents. If we come from this kind of background.
Now I'm making a huge generalization. You did say there's some people that do change. And that's great. You might not be listening to this episode. If you if that's happened for you, right? You're living your happy life with parents who can take accountability and change
Krispin: Right. Right.
DL: So I love you. Good for you. Um, a bunch of us aren't not having that experience.
Krispin: Right. And I think a lot of people, what I heard from a lot of people, is I can't set boundaries. And I think I understand that sentiment. I'm not trying to like invalidate at all.
DL: Oh my god, we totally understand that.
Krispin: What I, what I think a way of reframing it is when I try to set boundaries or when I do set boundaries, this, these are the horrible things that happen.
One of them, first and foremost, is fawning, right? So for some people, if you don't, fawning is a, your nervous system. For me, it just shuts down. It's like, okay, boundaries being crossed. And then I maybe feel some anger come up, and then my nervous system is like, no, anger's only gonna make it worse. Just shut down.
DL: Well that’s more the freeze response.
Krispin: Yes. Right. Okay. That's true. Yes.
DL: I went into fawning a lot. Which is, you just do anything you can to appease the main predator. In my life that’s my mom, because she's the one who has the emotions to manage and socialize me as a kid to, to only care about her. But I think for me, both of them are deeply uncomfortable, right? responses to shut down and to also just immediately go into appeasing.
Krispin: Right, well, and I would go into like a shutdown appeasing
DL: Yes yes yes.
Krispin: Like right like I told you that you could only come over for the afternoon But I guess you can say three nights, you know
DL: And so what's interesting, I think, for both of us, we've explored and played with boundaries that, like, are specific to our, um, threat responses, right? Mine is fawn with my parents. And so, for me, I had to go low contact. Right? Because I couldn't just override that. So, putting a lot of distance and boundaries in there has been excellent for me, and I can now start to get in touch with who I really am.
So, for instance, if my mom texts something, I have a choice now to be like, well, do I want to send my real thoughts back?
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: or not. Now, it doesn't matter how she responds. It's more like, what do I want to do? And every once in a while, I share my actual thoughts, which never goes well.
Krispin: She always says, “That's intense!”
DL: “That's intense!” Every time so that so like, that's mine. And yours has been a little, was a little bit more of that gray rock, which I think is again, a great way of dealing with the freeze response, which is like you do, you shut down on purpose and you give them nothing to go on.
Krispin: Right, like I remember one time my, my dad was, um, was really trying to pressure me, pressure me into things because he would always want, he would share his opinion and he really wanted me to agree with him.
DL: Of course.
Krispin: So I would say, Oh, let me think about that. Like I'm not sure. Let me, I'm going to have to think about that.
And that was so upsetting to him. So upsetting that I didn't just say yeah, you're right dad. I totally agree with you. You're so smart. You're so wise
DL: Uh huh
Krispin: Um and but then the fallout was he treated me really poorly and he treated our five-year-old really poorly.
DL: So at that point,
Krispin: It's just like okay. I can't—yeah.
DL: And that's, I don't even know if that fits in this conversation, that’ll probably come more into our personal stories
Krispin: Yeah, we’ll be talking more about like—mm hm.
DL: This dynamic for both you and I is we would have kept putting up with so much shit it wasn't for our kids.
Krispin: Right, yeah.
DL: And so I just also want to acknowledge that, we were, we were forced to in some ways because we were like, Oh, wait, our kids don't deserve this. The truth is we don't deserve it, but we had been so socialized to accept it. We couldn't really fully stand up for ourselves.
Krispin: Exactly. And yeah, I think, you said something a couple of minutes ago about the reality of it, and I think that's where we go is like, what is what's the reality of the situation?
DL: Oh! Isn’t it hard to look at reality square in the face, Krispin? Isn't it hard? I love all the precious babies listening who you've been running your whole life from facing the reality of what you deserved to get as a kid, and what you didn’t get.
Krispin: Right.
DL: You know?
Krispin: Yeah. So I thought it would be good to just go through like what are some of the typical responses, you know, rather than I can't set boundaries. When I set boundaries, this is what happens, right? So when I set boundaries, um, you know, for some people, it's resources, housing, childcare comes under threat.
So we want to acknowledge that. For some people it's like when I when I express a boundary I'm told why I'm wrong and that doesn't feel good right my own internal validation and needs
DL: So fun to be told—
Krispin: Right? That you don't really know your own experience or your own needs or what's best for you. um parents get mad right that's what my dad did like I could just see
DL: Which is scary, and it totally triggers the childhood stuff.
Krispin: Totally triggers, and especially if you are spanked, I would say, right?
I'm like, oh yeah, my body remembers when dad gets mad. I, that means violence coming towards me. So, um, but then also parents get sad, right? So I said that I'm like, hey, I'm not able to, I can come to Thanksgiving, but I'm not going to be able to stay all weekend. And now my mom is sad and crying because, you know, you're drifting away and, you know, I know I'm kind of going gendered there, but I think it's common.
DL: I also think, like, this is great for us to talk about, this is something that comes up a lot is like, what bring people to the point of setting boundaries and then how do you deal with the guilt?
Krispin: I think we'll have to talk about that next time.
DL: Okay. That'll be a Q&A thing.
Krispin: huh, yes.
DL: But I do want to say one of the reasons we resist putting up boundaries is we don't want to have to deal with the guilt.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Don’t you think? That's a huge part of it. I mean, I know that's for me. It's like, I cannot handle my dad's anger and my mom's sadness. Like, those have been so programmed into me.
Right? To avoid it at all costs. It's like, ugh. And, the only way out is through. That's what I have to say. You're gonna have to feel those feelings. And you're gonna get to the other side. It might take a while, but like, you will walk through the valley of
Krispin: The shadow of death? Are we going biblical?
DL: of, I'm being a huge fucking disappointment to your parents because they can't control you anymore. And that's what they're sad about. They're sad because they miss the you that they could control. So once you get through all those feelings, you will see that more clearly and it'll give you like, a whole lot of feelings to deal with instead of just the guilt.
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Which is better. It's better to actually have complex feelings about this, right?
Instead of that knee jerk, it's my fault. I must fix it. I can't believe I did this to my parents. Like, you'll still have some of those, but you'll have a lot of other ones too, including some righteous anger, right? On your own behalf.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I think other things that come up are you get judged or criticized,
DL: Yeah. You ready to be the talk of the family?
Krispin: Yep. Which I mean, really we're talking about like, you're going to be the black sheep and that sucks. Um, they'll try to control you through religious talk.
DL: I can't wait to talk about this in my episode.
Krispin: And the other thing is it feels like the other reason it's hard is it feels like setting boundaries is the cost of the family relationship.
It feels like, if I set even a boundary about like, I'm going to come for just Thanksgiving and I'm not going to stay for all three days, this, this feeling comes up of like, oh, this is going to be the end of the whole relationship because the whole relationship has up until this point been based on me not having my own choices and making my own choices and you know, that sort of thing.
DL: So, what do you say to people who have this feeling of like, if I set boundaries it’s going to be the end, and I don’t want it to be the end.
Krispin: I think we're going to talk about that when we talk about estrangement. Um,
DL: Oh, right! Today's just boundaries!
Krispin: Just boundaries. But I just want to acknowledge that that's the feeling that comes up. I will say this is that along with this framework, a lot of times it feels all or nothing. So it feels like if I take this stand, it's going to be the end of my relationship.
Or even if it's like, I'm not going to Thanksgiving this year, it might feel to everybody like, oh, this is the end of the relationship. You're never coming to any holiday again. But that doesn't have to be the truth. You can be like, I am feeling so raw from this election, and I do not want to be around my parents this Thanksgiving, and I will see how I feel at Christmas.
DL: Even if you made plans, you can cancel them. I don't know if anybody's telling you.
Krispin: It is Monday before Thanksgiving.
DL: you can get out of it. You are a human being with autonomy. You do not have to go to something that for one is going to stress out your nervous system. We're in a really stressful time. You've got to prioritize your self-care. You have to.
Krispin: Right. And here's the other thing, is you do not have to be authentic and vulnerable about why you're going. That comes up all the time. It's like, well, if I'm, I mean, I got into this loop with my dad where I would pull away
DL: uh huh
Krispin: and he could feel it. I would like spend less time with him, blah, blah, blah. And then he would be like, you know, mature people, emotionally mature people, they state directly what, what they need and why and they don't, they're not passive aggressive. They don't just pull away. And so I'd say, oh, yeah. Well, actually it's been feeling this way. And then his response would be, well, your feelings are invalid. You should spend time with
DL: I'm glad you said this, because this is the reality for a lot of people
Krispin: Right, is, and I think within the church, like there's all this like, for people that are in the power down position that are at the bottom, they are expected to be authentic and vulnerable and accountable and all the—right? So if you have a problem, you need to say something. So all that to say, you're allowed to say, oh, I'm, I'm sorry, my kid's sick. We can't come this year.
DL: Oh, we love a white lie. Can you believe I'm saying that? I used to live my life just telling my parents everything. And I can't believe the amount of invalidation, gaslighting I got. None of it helped.
Krispin: I mean, the thing is, often, with a boundary like this, if you could trust that you could tell them why you're setting it, you probably wouldn't have to set it in the first place.
DL: Well, that's not true.
Krispin: Right. Well, when I say, I mean boundaries like this.
DL: Okay, that's true.
Krispin: I mean, it's normal to have boundaries in a relationship. But if you're, if the, the boundary is like, I don't want, I want to spend less time around you because you're critical of me. Sharing that with that person is just going to invite more criticism. And if you could trust like them to say, oh yeah, I hear you. Then you probably wouldn't have to set that boundary in the first place. So,
DL: Wow, Krispin, this has been a wide-ranging conversation.
Krispin: So I think I do want to, I know, I know you're trying to wrap this up.
DL: Haha
Krispin: I just want to say that this is the dilemma that people are in, right? That's the reality of it is like shifting from, I can't set a boundary to, if I set a boundary here, the bad things that will happen. And that doesn't mean that you have to go through those bad things.
You can make that choice. You can decide like, yeah, if I don't go to Thanksgiving this year, like every it's going to blow up everything and that's going to be harder for my nervous system than going.
DL: Right
Krispin: It's easier for my nervous system to go and pretend like things are okay than to not go. And you can totally make that choice and maybe start thinking about like, how do I like set things up different for next year?
Um, but I think that reality of, um, yeah, thinking about like, here's just the reality of it. And then you can make choices from that place.
DL: And we've been through it we're out on the other side and we're gonna be hanging out with some friends on Thursday and we're not celebrating the colonizer holiday. But we're planning something that will actually make us feel connected to other humans, who want the flourishing of all people, who want to be, um, thankful and connected to the earth and the rhythms of, you know, the seasons.
So, I'm like, it's just as simple as that. And when you're in these enmeshed, you know, family systems, all your energy goes towards keeping that going and then you don't have the energy to invest in these like mutually reciprocal life-giving communities, right? And so I think that's the other piece once you've set boundaries like you have more emotional availability to do what you actually need and what is going to be good for you.
So that's hopefully that's a little encouraging, I've, I've been there though, if, if you're stressing, I've been there. Um, can we talk really quick about how people can just sort of take care of their bodies right now?
Krispin: Yes. Mm hm.
DL: I would just say, be so gentle to your body this week, um, try and give it love any way you can. Maybe that is by eating delicious mashed potatoes. That's one way I'm going to show my body love. Use an ice pack on the chest if you're having racing thoughts and panic thoughts about family. Um, get the wiggles out somehow. Try and be in your body. Try and connect to nature. And when all else fails, get a crystal.
Krispin: Hahaha
DL: Okay? There's, I knew that would make you laugh. There's crystals that can help with setting boundaries. Amethyst,
Krispin: Mm-Hmm.
DL: Obsidian. I wanted to throw that wild card out there at the end, Krispin. Any little thing to help.
Krispin: Right. I think trying to connect with people that do feel, you know, good for your nervous system. So maybe that's like texts or whatever with friends. Um, I think the stuff that you said, taking care of your body. I think the other thing is we talked about all this tension, this episode and the tension that comes up between being my authentic self in this system that doe not want me to be my authentic self.
And as, as a last note, I want to empower people that are ready that I want to empower people that are making the choice, like, I want to be my authentic self. I don't want to put up with this bullshit anymore. I also want to empower people that are like, I do not have the energy to, you can set that.
There's another way of setting a boundary, which is like, I'm not going to trust you with my vulnerable self. I'm not going to trust you with my real thoughts. I'm going to go through the motions this holiday. Um, and, and I am going to maybe do some work over the next year about, like, how I can, what I want to do with this relationship, but I want to give you all the permission in the world to just survive this holiday, if that's where you're at.
DL: Yup. And shore up those internal boundaries. And I think, you know, you can do that regardless of whether you’re in proximity to people or not. But we know there’s people in a wide range of situations. And, honestly, I just want to say: You are lovable, right?
There is, there are people and places out there that when you're your true self, they will like you. And I'm sorry that, you know, our vulnerabilities have been exploited so that we don't believe that, um, in order to keep these enmeshed systems going. So, well, that's my thoughts on boundaries.
Krispin: Yep. Yeah. We will be, like I said, uh, like we said, we'll be telling our stories. We'll be talking more about estrangement in the past. So many people ask that question, like, when do I know when to cut off or go no contact? Of course, there's no formula. We can't tell you that, but we can tell you,
DL: Our personal stories.
Krispin: Yes. Mm hmm.
DL: Yeah, so be on the lookout for that. We'll have a few more chapters coming up too, but this is kind of the topic we're going to be camping out on, um, during this holiday season.
Krispin: Yep. Exactly. So stay tuned and we'll be back soon.
DL: Bye!
Krispin: Thanks y'all.
Who we are:
D.L. Mayfield (they/them), is an autistic non-binary writer and parent. D.L. grew up as a homeschooled evangelical pastor’s kid, and spent many years in the Christian writing world before deconverting from Christianity in 2022, and they enjoy deep diving history in order to find patterns.
Krispin Mayfield (he/him), is a licensed therapist and author who specializes in religious trauma and neurodivergence. Krispin was also raised evangelical and spent his teenage years as a missionary kid before also leaving Christianity in adulthood. Krispin and D.L. have been married for almost 17 years and are the parents of two incredible children.
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