Welcome to STRONGWILLED, the multimedia project aimed at helping survivors of religious authoritarian parenting methods develop autonomy and find solidarity. Today’s post is the audio/transcript of a conversation about what it’s like when you start to notice your partner’s family is dysfunctional, as well as what it’s like when you’re the one in the enmeshed family — and your partner starts to point it out to you.
You can listen here or find STRONGWILLED wherever you normally get your podcasts.
As always, this is a survivor-led and survivor-supported publication. If you appreciate our work (and our ad-free podcast!) please consider supporting us financially or sharing about the podcast on your social media channels.
(transcript has been lightly edited for clarity)
DL: Testing, 1, 2, 3, testing.
Krispin: I think that's good. Okay. Last time on our Patreon, I had it a little hot. I don't know if you heard that.
DL: You were hot?
Krispin: You were.
DL: Oh. I'm always hot.
Krispin: It was a little crispy.
DL: You're always Krispy. I'm always hot.
Krispin: We haven't even started.
DL: Oh.
Krispin: I mean, I'm recording.
DL: Aaaah!
Krispin: So we’ll just start here. Welcome to—
DL: That’s the cold open, babes.
Krispin: Welcome to the STRONGWILLED Podcast.
DL: We're DL and Krispin Mayfield, a married couple who's been doing our shit for a long time. And here we are, Krispin, with a podcast about religious authoritarian parenting methods, how to develop autonomy and build solidarity.
That's what we're doing, right?
Krispin: Yeah. Talking about how to reckon with the authoritarianism we grew up with—
DL: and that has now taken over our country—
Krispin: —that we thought we escaped and we didn't.
DL: Out of the frying pan into the fire. Am I right?
Krispin: Right.
DL: So if you're listening to this, there's a good chance you’re freaking out a bit. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And we also freak out. We're also doing the work to keep showing up and living our lives. And you know, my whole thing is processing the pain of childhood is actually like essential to resisting authoritarianism. I'm sure we'll get into that a little bit today.
But before we get into today's episode. Should we do a little celebration?
Krispin: Yeah. Wahoo!
DL: Was that Mario?
Krispin: What's your celebration noise? I was thinking of the end of one of those Sufjan songs on the Illinois album.
DL: What?
Krispin: I'll put it in the audio.
DL: Okay. You want to hear my celebration noise? Ahh-uhh
Krispin: What sound was that?
DL: I dunno, I was just trying to make you laugh. It worked!
Krispin: Was it – I couldn't tell if it was sexual or if it was Ariel, the beginning of Ariel…
DL: It was supposed to be sexual.
Krispin: Oh, okay.
DL: And it was supposed to make you laugh. So. I don't know, maybe you have a thing for Ariel.
Krispin: I was always more of a Belle boy.
DL: Bellboy!
Krispin: Bellboy.
DL: She rings your bell. I was more of a Mulan person myself.
Krispin: Yes. And we know why. But let me explain why I was a Belle boy. She read books, she was a weirdo, and beautiful, which is just like you.
DL: You're not like Mulan at all. And yet here we are.
Krispin: I'm sort of the converse of Mulan.
DL: What? You're Ping? You are Ping.
Krispin: No, I am someone who really did not like the gendered expectations of me. And did the opposite.
DL: Yeah. Well, we’re getting far afield, but hey, that's what you get.
Krispin: Wait, have we said what we're celebrating yet?
DL: No! We haven't. We're celebrating one year of STRONGWILLED. So thanks to everyone who's been reading. Thanks to everyone who's been listening. We've published 14 chapters. We've done 11 podcast episodes, plus 11 patron only episodes. We've interviewed folks, we've done community discussions. We've started a Discord.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Woo!
Krispin: It's a lot.
DL: How do you feel?
Krispin: Good. I feel really proud of us.
DL: I feel proud of us too.
Krispin: And just really glad for this conversation. I think we're going to talk today some more about estrangement. And even thinking about this episode, I feel like a lot of the work that we've done isn't just work we've done. It's this whole community having conversations about our experiences.
DL: Yeah. So real quick, I'm just going say, you and I have been working on this book project for quite a while. Since 2023?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: 2023.
Krispin: Which, by the way was two years ago for those of you that were like, that was just last year, right?
DL: Yeah, because it was early 2023 we were really starting to write some of the content and we decided to not go the route of traditional publishing and to, you know, publish on Substack and also have a podcast to go along with it, just because we wanted to get this content out there and we wanted it to be a collaborative project.
You know, we've seen the dangers of people being like, we're the experts and blah, blah, blah. So, you know, every comment that people have left, every, uh, message they've sent us, you know, every skeet they've sent, it's like this is a community project and we are getting feedback in real time.
And I have to be honest and say that the majority of the feedback is, this resonates with my experience.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And that's what we were hoping for.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know, of course, I wouldn't put this project out if I didn't think I was right. This the autistic way. But it's really been gratifying to be in the trenches of this kind of horrific and triggering content and, and have people, as we put the pieces together to show patterns of abusive parenting pedagogies and how they neatly line up with authoritarian political aims.
And to have people be like, wow, this resonates. And also I've been encouraged because it's not tons of people, but the people that are drawn to our work are people who are ready to process the pain of childhood.
And that's something not a lot of people want to do. So it's nice to have them find us. If people are not ready, they're not reading our work, so, you know. It's kind of great.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's been so great to have all this engagement. And as a therapist myself, I know that so many people are wrestling through this.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Maybe that's cliche, you know, thinking about childhood, but really I am just finding it so important. And, especially right now with the current political situation, so many people's parenting experiences are getting triggered.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: For good reason. It makes sense. It's a continual line. The philosophy now is the philosophy that many of us were raised with. It just makes sense that we're all feeling like, oh my God, I feel like a kid again in this like powerless way.
DL: Yeah, I mean, I think even like right now we're sort of in the midst of reeling from Trump talking about tariffs and the economy tanking and all the prices are going to raise, and he is like, you know, I'm doing this for your own good and just be prepared to suffer for a while. It is like, oh wow. That's what abusive parents say.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Which unfortunately we know since we've been studying it, plus we lived it! So, it's all a part, you know, childhood is political is our current reality. We're here with you and it.
We have a few Patron only posts we want to plug real quick. There's a few ways you can support this project if you have been enjoying it. I guess enjoying is a weird word.
Krispin: If you've benefited from it? Resonated with it?
DL: I don't know, resonated with it, you can of course support us on Substack. That's the best way. You can also support us on Patreon for a much lower price and get access to some Patreon only content. You want to talk real quick about what we've put out there?
Krispin: Yeah, so about a week ago we put out a post checking in about how are we doing right now and how are we coping with the current political situation, and what are reasonable steps that we're taking day to day, but also putting it in a framework of like, if you did grow up evangelical, what are some kind of psychological things that might be coming up now? In terms of this feeling of like, I always have to be doing more and more and more.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I won't get too heavy into it, but we just talked about that and then the Paton only episode before that was a question and answer about estrangement.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So we've been talking about estrangement, we're going to talk about it again today. But there we just took mostly listener questions and talked about some of those, you know, the kind of lingering questions about like, how do you set boundaries with parents when you have kids that want to see them and stuff like that.
DL: Yeah, yeah. Great. So you can support us there. Now, in today's episode, we're going be talking about something that Krispin, you've been wanting to talk about for a really long time.
I think this is in part because of your own personal experience, but also being a therapist, and a couples therapist. So you want to talk about parental estrangement and a partner's perspective, right?
Krispin: Right. Exactly.
DL: And I just want to say before we get into the nitty gritty of it, which I'm glad we're going do, I just want to say, again, big picture, it might seem like a niche topic we're talking about today, but being able to identify, name, and stand up to abusive people, be it your family members – which is one of the hardest things to do, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: That's sort of like boss level. I don't know any good video game terms. Who's the big boss in Mario?
Krispin: Wario. It's a
DL: It’s a Wario level.
Krispin: Or Bowser. I mean.
DL: A Bowser level. Oh my God, you play these things. You should know.
Krispin: I don't really ever.
DL: Where's our 9-year-old?
Krispin: I know. I only play paper, Mario. And as we determined recently, I never paid attention to the storylines of games.
DL: Then what the fuck are you doing?
Krispin: Just having fun.
DL: Just vibing.
Krispin: Just putting the puzzles together.
DL: Okay. Anyhoo, this is the big boss Bowser level, if you can identify abusive patterns from your caregivers, you know, the people that you are desperately trying to get care and all that from, you can then use your skills to identify and stand up to abusive patterns wherever you find them.
And right now, so many Americans are being subjected to these abusive tactics in the political sphere. And we have been for quite some time, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I've been looking at all these conservative newspapers and books from the 1990s, and it's all there too.
So I'm like, this matters. This matters. Talking about this matters. Because the more we can do this work, the more we can stand up to abusive patterns wherever we may find them. So that's my, that's my little spiel about why this is so important. And once you start to gain these skills, you really can't start to see it everywhere.
Krispin: I think that this is like where intersectionality is really important, right? Being able to say like, okay, I understand like abusive power dynamics in this system. Yeah. And now I can see it show up in these other systems as well.
DL: That is the goal.
Krispin: Right? And finding solidarity with other folks. So like me as a white man.
DL: A white man?
Krispin: You know, I don't have the experience of women or people of color, but I do know what it is like to be in an abusive system where you are treated poorly and then every time you speak up about it, you are the problem.
DL: Yeah. Well as an autistic person, I find it astonishing when someone can be so good at identifying abusive patterns in history or in our current reality, and they are not able to use that skillset to see it in other places. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes. Mm-hmm.
DL: And no matter where you look, there's some form of intersectionality that is just being totally ignored. You know, right now fatphobia is a huge thing that nobody wants to touch with a 10 foot pole.
But I'm like, but again, it's the same dynamics going on when it comes to misogyny, racism, ableism, you know? So let's just try and see the patterns everywhere and it becomes – I don't want to use the word superpower, but it becomes like this way of standing up unilaterally to all of these gaslighting motherfuckers, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: So that’s what I have to say. Now. We're going to talk about partners .
Krispin: Mm-hm.
DL: And estrangement.
Krispin: Right. And the dynamic that happens when one person is in this dysfunctional family system. And maybe they're starting to notice, oh, maybe I need some boundaries, maybe this is a toxic system, but they're not quite there yet. But the partner is like. I'm seeing this so clearly.
DL: Yeah. Right. And hopefully we've sort of made the case through our chapters and our content and our podcast episodes about white evangelicalism and religious authoritarian parenting methods to say that these methods created, on purpose, toxic family dynamics.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So if you were raised in this, if you were born into this, you know, newsflash, you probably have some toxic family dynamics that you've had to deal with. And maybe you've dealt with that on your own, or maybe you have someone in your life, a partner, a friend who has helped you see those dynamics. So that's what we're going talk about right now.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. And really, I want to share my story. Which is also your story.
DL: Oh my God!
Krispin: Imagine that! And just kind of like talk through some of the dynamics that came up as we were walking through this. And what I was thinking about was, you know, 18 years ago, I think, I'm not doing my math right, but right after we got married we spent two months with my family.
DL: Yeah. In a foreign country.
Krispin: In a foreign country.
DL: In a tiny apartment.
Krispin: Yes. Right. This, you probably relate, if you remember being in your early twenties and making a decision like that. Right? So, we got married. My parents were missionaries in China at that time, and so we were like, all right, well, let's go spend a couple of months with my family.
We had not really spent, you hadn't spent more than like three hours at a time with my parents at that point.
DL: I met your mom just a few days before our wedding.
Krispin: Right, exactly. And so we were like, all right, like, let's go to China. Let's spend some time there. Some dyslexia came into play where we were supposed to come back on—
DL: Are you calling me out?
Krispin: —we were supposed to come back on July 13th and the flight was booked for July 31st. Which added an extra—
DL: Ughh. Yes, I did do that
Krispin: —two weeks. So it originally wasn't supposed to be two months, but it ended up, it turned two months.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But what I remember is, yeah, spending this time with my family, and of course to me it feels pretty normal.
I'm like, this is just what family life is like. There were parts of me that knew that I didn't like the way that my dad treated me or treated our family, but it was just sort of like, this is just it. And then you're whispering in my ear.
DL: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Like, hey, do you notice this? Like this is like pretty dysfunctional.
DL: Yeah. What do you remember me telling you?
Krispin: I don't, I just remember what comes to mind is me laying on this bed and you telling me things that were upsetting to you.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I think things, things like going out to dinner and my dad ordering for everyone.
DL: Oh my God.
Krispin: Instead of like asking like, what do people want to eat?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And you being like, this is weird. Or like dynamics where we just wouldn't have really substantive conversation at all.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: We would just watch movies and TV shows like all day.
DL: So many card games.
Krispin: So many card games. And you were just like, hey, this is upsetting. This doesn't feel good to me. I don't know exactly what you said. I just remember being like, oh my God, it feels like DL is forcing me to look at something that I don't want to look at.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And it is excruciating. And I remember this feeling, by the way, I'm not the only one with this experience in the world.
DL: Right.
Krispin: Feeling really torn. Feeling like put in the middle.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Between like, here's my partner's perspective. I don't want to invalidate their perspective. But I also don't want to believe that my parents, that my family is dysfunctional either.
DL: Yeah, totally. Right. It's funny, what I remember from China is, for one, I was sort of like, whoa, you didn't tell me that your family's so awkward.
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: Whoa. And we are trapped in this little apartment with them.
Krispin: Right.
DL: It's hard to talk about without like talking about how awkward it was. But your family did not talk.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But forced everyone to be together constantly. Which I found very odd. Second of all, your dad would find ways to get you alone. And then say really awful shit to you when I wasn't there. Because already, even though they barely knew me, it was sort of like, oh, Danielle will talk back and, you know, all that stuff.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: Where Krispin wouldn’t. So he bullied you into agreeing to do things that you didn't actually want do, but that was when he could sort of get you away from me. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes, totally.
DL: And I was like, that sucks. Why are you doing this? You know, all that stuff.
Krispin: Yeah. And it felt like the, I think for me, it really felt like this weird, like, which family system do I belong to here, and how do I like manage both of these? Because I just kind of go back into teenage Krispin mode around my parents.
DL: Yeah. Well, yeah, it was my experience of seeing you regress because I knew you as Krispin and I think in China I saw you, I don't know if regress is the right word, but I definitely saw for the first time, like, oh, Krispin is the oldest. Krispin is the peacemaker. Krispin is trying really hard to make this good and fun and okay.
Krispin: Help everyone be okay.
DL: Oh yeah. So I was like, okay. Oh, he is the oldest. Because here in Oregon you were just a little weirdo.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And so
Krispin: So passive.
DL: Yeah. And so it was interesting. I was like, oh, he does have the oldest child pressure, you know? To make everything okay.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. And I would say that was the first experience, but kind of over the course of the following, like 10 years you were in this position of seeing these dysfunctional patterns, right?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And it was beyond awkwardness. It was like, you know, if hopefully y'all have listened to my story about estrangement and the abuse that happened to me, that led to that. And so you're seeing this like, hey, your parents just keep on like gaslighting you over and over.
DL: It was heartbreaking.
Krispin: Right? And you would also get really mad at them.
DL: Oh yeah.
Krispin: Right? And I think you really were in this position of like, I care about you. I'm so pissed off that they're mistreating you.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: My experience was like, oh no, DL is mad at my parents. But I don't want to be mad at them. I just want peace.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: And so what I felt like was caught in the middle. Right? And you were trying to support me. So like, yeah. I think that this is such a common dynamic. I hear about this all the time where a partner is like, yeah, your parents are so shitty to you, I don't like them, but the partner instead of being able to take that as support is like, oh, now I have to like kind of mediate this peace between my partner and my parents.
DL: Yeah. I mean, I was forcing conflict, not on purpose, exactly.
Krispin: But you just refuse— That's the thing is like, in my mind I was like, if DL would just let things go and ignore their emotions the way that I've done my whole life, everything would be okay.
DL: You know what's funny is that is what a lot of people think about me,
Krispin: Uh huh, right?
DL: If I could just let things go, I could have maintained a career in the Christian writing world, I could still be the darling of my family. You know, it's just funny how again, when you do this in one area, it kind of goes into others, too.
Krispin: Right. Yes, exactly. And I think this is very, very common when you have one— like I was in this enmeshed family
DL: Yeah. Right.
Krispin: This dysfunctional, enmeshed family and then you're my autistic partner.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And I see this all the time where the autistic partner from the outside is like, I see this pattern and I see how it's harming you. And like the idea of just because someone gave birth to you does not compute for so many autistic folks.
DL: Well that they get to treat you terribly.
Krispin: Exactly right.
Just because someone gave birth to you doesn't mean that you have to like put up with this. And so I think that's really, I wonder what that was like for you to see that pattern playing out over and over and me just being like, but it'll be okay. Like I'll try harder, you know?
DL: Well, it was excruciating and I will say in retrospect, I was trying really hard in my own way to not come on too strong. To give you your space, to recognize it's your family. You know, I did try, but at the same time it was sort of like your dad had anger issues and your family was responding horribly.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: To so many things, but about protecting children from a predator. So to me these were extremely high stakes issues and I wasn't able to like say it at the time, but it just seemed to me like, how is this going to get better?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: If we just keep capitulating to your parents and doing what they're doing and creating peace and it ended up getting much worse, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And so I think with time now behind us, again, this brings to mind what's going on with Trump, what's going on with Republicans, what's going on with, you know, MAGA Republicans. Things will continue to get worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. It doesn't get better.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: These people don't see the light. Every time you capitulate to them, they get worse. And then basically you're pushing off the confrontation till it gets even worse. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Yeah, totally. Right.
DL: So that’s where I'm like, confront them now.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Stop it now because it ends up escalating really intensely if you don't. So that's what I'll say.
Krispin: Yeah. And I think you had some insight into that. And what was going on for me at the time was attachment panic.
DL: Of course.
Krispin: Which is, I think this comes up a lot where we have such a connection to our parents, this drive to connect with them. When something threatens that connection, we get a ton of anxiety. Right?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And so you have a partner saying, Hey, your parents don't treat you well. And your partner might even be like, hey, you should have a conversation with your parents about that. You should set some boundaries.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But you know that's never going to happen.
DL: Right.
Krispin: They're never going to change. So does that mean then that I'll eventually have to cut off relationship with them? And then it triggers my anxiety and it's like, I don't want to think about that.
DL: Yeah. Right.
Krispin: And like I said, I see this dynamic happen all the time with folks where it's like you have a partner that's really trying to be supportive – and also there's this other element of like, it does impact the partner, right?
So I'm willing, I was willing to like put up with dysfunction,
DL: Yeah you were!
Krispin: but that means asking something of you. To also put up with that dysfunction.
DL: Exactly. And for me it was really sad to see how much you were willing to put up with to get this illusion of love.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Which to you felt like love.
And I think as the partner during those years, I felt really caught. Like, you don't want your partner to be an orphan, you don't want that. And at the same time you're like, you kind of already are.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And all you get is like the worst elements of being an enmeshed family, and you're not getting anything positive out of this.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So maybe it's better to just kind of accept reality. Which is, you're on your own bud.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Which you kind of knew, I mean, your parents sent you to the United States when you were 17 years old, even though you didn't want go to have your senior year of high school.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: All alone at a new school. They shipped you off. Like, you're on your own, bud. And even that, I was like, that's really shitty.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know? That they did that to you.
Krispin: Yeah. I remember you asking, did you want to do that? And I was like, wait. That's a question?
DL: I was like, wait a minute. What?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Now what's funny is as we're talking about your situation, you know, this whole time I was like, yeah, Krispin’s family has some real issues, but mine's great! Right?
Krispin: Right!
DL: And my family sort of adopted you. We were sort of on a big kick of like, we’ll take care of Krispin.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And then eventually, many years later, I would come to the realization that I also came from an enmeshed family with really toxic patterns. Our patterns were more like we never talk about the trauma of things that happened in childhood and all that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And we pretend like they didn't happen. And so it's been interesting to have this, like, just because I could see the patterns with your family I was not able to see it in mine. And I think that is really important for me to say.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
DL: I'm not a savant.
Krispin: Right.
DL: The childhood stuff is so toxic. And the thing about evangelicalism, both you and I got this, is we are the best, most loving Christian family. Your family were missionaries, right? So your home church is like, wow, you guys must be amazing, and very spiritual. My dad was a pastor, you know, everybody's like, wow, your family's amazing. And so both of us had all this extra pressure.
Our parents had friends, you know, our parents had community.
Krispin: Right.
DL: So how could we be like, something's wrong here? Because there was so much around us saying, no, you guys are the best.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, totally. And also there is this element of like, yeah, I've lost my family.
DL: Right.
Krispin: But I still need some sense of like grounding or resources or whatever. And I think some of that came up around your family where it's like, you know, it's, it's this feeling of like, well, we need someone to call if our car breaks down.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And it's been just a journey of finding out you can find people beyond who your blood related to be those people in your life.
DL: Yeah. I think that's why – little plug for queer media – queer media is all about found family and I think that's really important.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Especially for the kind of society that America is now. And the ways that toxicity and enmeshment and control have been sort of injected into family dynamics from these Christian publishing books and so many other ways. So I'm like, yep. Found family. You know, what we orphans need, I guess.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Because it is so hard, that attachment, panic, that like drive. We are as humans herd creatures, right? We are just really driven to be part of a herd, have a sense of like security in numbers. And so when we go low contact or no contact, it really threatens that survival instinct in us.
DL: Yeah. And I think that's just a huge issue for many people right at this moment. Especially as the economy is tanking and so much is happening. I think that panic, that isolation.
I'm alone. Who can help me? It's real for so many people right now, which is why authoritarianism continues to be so popular. It gives people a sense of psychological safety.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: If you're in the cult of MAGA, there's a lot of people there with you.
Krispin: Right. Everybody wants a protective father figure.
DL: Yeah. I mean, that's what they're exploiting.
Krispin: Yes. Right, exactly. Because there is some truth to that. Like we want a sense of like security and like someone else is looking out for me.
DL: Yeah. But the truth is when you grow up, this is such an important part of transitioning from like childhood and adolescence into adulthood is like, the biggest protector of myself is myself. Right?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: And that's what we need to be focusing on, is connecting to our bodies, our true selves, and not outsourcing our sense of safety to any other figure. Be it political, be it some, I don’t know, ex-evangelical leader, you know?
Krispin: Right.
DL: Like don't outsource your sense of safety and even community to these outside figures. You are the source of community. Right?
Krispin: Right.
DL: You can be in community with your own body, with nature, with the people around you. Does that make sense what I'm saying?
Krispin: Yeah, totally. And I think that there's this element of, we're not talking about giving up interdependence, but I think that there's this child version of like this dynamic of like, I want to know my parents' basement is always there, right?
DL: Right.
Krispin: I can always move back in and it's simple and it's easy and it's just this sense of security. And I think being an adult means like I'm responsible for my own wellbeing and I can lean on various people in my life, right? But it's not this all-encompassing, like, here's just one figure that is going to like meet all of my needs if I can't meet them. It's more like how do I meet my needs through interdependence?
DL: Yeah. Yeah. And I think another common dynamic to this is, you know, to be crystal clear white evangelicalism and religious authoritarianism is predicated on misogyny, right? The patriarchy.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And the patriarchy needs hierarchy. It needs the gender binary. So both you and I were, we're talking about estrangement from our respective families. Both of us have dads who maybe don't fit exactly the mold of a misogynist.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But they are.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And they really were drawn to this world and this system where they could be elevated, prioritized, and upheld as the spiritual leader, the authority figure. And also be like, and I'm a really good, really nice guy. While having tons of anger issues that they, they didn't deal with, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So I think that's another important thing to say is that these dynamics and these enmeshed families tend to center around men and the women who support them and their utter lack of emotional intelligence and their desire to be at the top of the hierarchy.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Now, when you raise kids in that system, right, we're supposed to worship our parents and do whatever they say, and then transfer that to our pastor, to, if you're socialized as female, your husband, to the Republican party.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: So it's when you start to unpack those dynamics and look at your parents as actual people with issues, especially in this framework, then you can start to see that everywhere. And that's important for me to name. We're talking about misogyny,
Krispin: Right. Yes, totally. Yeah. Yeah.
I want to take a little bit of a turn and talk about what are ways to support someone who's in that enmeshed family. You see them suffering. You want to support them. I think there are lots of different ways to do this, right?
Sometimes it takes someone in their life, be it a therapist or a partner or whatever, to say, hey, this relationship, whether it's with parents or you know, let's say it's an abusive romantic relationship or toxic work environment, whatever it is –
There's kind of two paths you can take, and I think they're both helpful. One is to say, hey, I see the dynamics in the system, I see you getting hurt. This feels abusive, this feels toxic, et cetera. But sometimes when you say that, you know, you tell someone, hey, it feels like you're in an abusive relationship.
Then they feel like, oh, I'm doing something wrong by staying here. You're telling me that I should do something about it. Or they might feel kind of caught in the middle, like, my friend is saying this, but then I feel like I kind of have to protect my partner who's abusive.
So the other path is to, instead of labeling it and saying, hey, I think this is abusive, another way to do it is to say, hey, how do you feel about this?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: What's it like, what does it feel like when you're around your parents? What's it like when you know your partner says this or does this?
DL: That's probably the more therapeutic approach. Am I right?
Krispin: Yes. I think you need both though. Because I think about people that have come out of abusive systems and sometimes it was like, this person in my life said, hey. I see this, this is abusive. And it clicked for them.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But also a lot of times you actually really want to give them the space to notice what they're feeling. Because then they can take action. They can do it.
DL: No, no, no, no, no. You gotta force the issue. I'm just laughing here because the two paths you just pointed out, I’m like, well, I'm one and you're the other. It’s been interesting to be, you know, me, to be who I am. I've just had so many reactions to me throughout my life of people being like, God, I'm not ready for that. Golly. And then, you know, sometimes they get mad at me. A lot of times they just distance themselves from me, which I think is like totally valid.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But it's been interesting in the last few years as I've delved more into these toxic dynamics of evangelical families, it's made some of my friends uncomfortable. And others are totally ready to have these conversations. And sometimes people will distance themselves from me and then they'll come back when they're ready. And guess what? I will validate the fuck out of them.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: If they want to about their parents and talk about this stuff. But if they are not ready for that, I think it's good to not be around me.
Krispin: Uh-huh. Right.
DL: Because I'll just be like, that is some abusive shit happening. Let me explain it. And it can be way too much for people.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: You know?
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: I think that's just the way it goes. We have so many real roadblocks to wanting to see these patterns and it has to kind of come from within eventually. But yeah, I am really here for people if they need someone to shit talk their parents with. I'm always good at that.
Krispin: Yes, you are.
There's one last aspect of this that I want to talk about, which is this predictable pattern. So in our scenario, I eventually cut off contact with my parents. I don't know if by the end, but I am certain that for a majority of this time, the narrative in my family was DL is manipulating Krispin, is controlling Krispin.
DL: Oh yeah. Oh, we knew this. We knew it, and we knew they were saying that, and I was like, do it. Bring it. Right? Like blame me and just be nice to Krispin at that point.
Krispin: Uh-huh.
DL: Because I’m just like, my precious baby! You're being so mean to him. You know, I was totally fine with that. But eventually it switched to them knowing you were the real problem for their system.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. The black sheep is just the wrench in the system. And you initially were the wrench in the system.
DL: Eventually they were like, oh shit, this, this is Krispin now. I think that's what really threw them for a loop.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. But yeah, I just wanted to validate all the partners out there to enmeshed people, that you probably are blamed. You might have feelings about that. Of course you will.
DL: That’s so funny. My feeling is like, bring it on. But I'm sure there's, there's other ways to view that. But I'm very protective of you. So I was sort of like, yeah, blame me, because that happened. That was a pattern in your family. If someone got married to someone who wasn't under the influence of your family's phone, and they were like, wait, this is kind of weird, they talked so much shit about that partner. So I was like, of course it's happening to me. Right?
Krispin: Yeah. You weren't the only partner. It was like every time somebody broke free that was the narrative, oh, they're being controlled by their partner.
DL: Which is so sad to, you know, again, going back to this dynamic, they think so little of you. They think I'm controlling you because they were controlling you, you know.
Krispin: Which goes back to Dobson. Not goes back to, but like parallels Dobson in adolescence. He's like, you have to psychologically control your kids, or they will be psychologically controlled by culture .
DL: Yeah. By the left.
Krispin: Right, exactly. Rather than trusting that your kid can have their own identity. Of course they're going be influenced by their peers, but it's just – they're telling on themselves.
DL: Right. Yeah.
Krispin: If you are not controlled by me, then you must be controlled by someone else because that's the way relationships work, is through control.
DL: Yeah. And so these are sticky situations, but no matter if you're the partner in this scenario or you're the adult child reckoning with abusive patterns and toxic patterns in your family, to me the path forward is the same no matter what. As the partner while you were dealing with your family, part of my job was just to support you and to encourage you to get more in touch with yourself, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Not be like, oh, I'm an Enneagram nine, and I hate conflict and I love peace, because those are all parts of you, but you also have a very stubborn side. Mm-hmm. You also have an angry side. You know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You're a human being. You have all these things. And having you get in touch with yourself so that you can stand up as yourself.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: That has positive benefits in so many ways. Of course, it feels awful in the meantime but connecting to who you are and operating out of this awareness of all the emotions, and being honest, confronting people for abusive behavior, that's all great.
Well, same goes for me. As somebody who took a much longer time to recognize the abusive patterns in my family, learning how to be who I am, to connect to myself, to feel my feelings, be in my body, that eventually helped me stand up to my family.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So either way, if you're the partner, or if you're the main person, it's sort of the same. Connect to yourself.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Operate out of that. The autonomy piece is so important. Especially when that's been crushed out of you so that you can be controlled and will be a part of an enmeshed family for life.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I also want to add, as you're giving your partner space to develop that autonomy and get in touch with themselves, that doesn't mean that you can't set boundaries with toxic in-laws. So I just want to say that part too. There is that element of, I know that I needed space to feel my own feelings, but if you're in a position where your in-laws are mistreating you, this doesn't mean just go along with it.
Or they're like doing things that that you don't want, like, maybe harmful to your kids or indoctrinating your kids. And your partner isn't setting that boundary, you're totally allowed to set that boundary.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Because it's your kids, it's your self. And that's really tricky.
So I just want to say that there is a lot of tension there, but I find it's kind of a two-pronged approach of trying to give your partner space to get in touch with what is it like for them in this family system, but also being like, and this is behavior I can't put up with in my life.
DL: Yeah. And maybe this is the last thing I'll say, because we've been talking about partners this entire time. I would also say, listen to your kids.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: If your kids are like this person does not make me feel good. Now, this is a huge generational issue happening. I think the most prominent way we see this showing up as in older generations being homophobic and transphobic, younger generations being like, why are you so obsessed with this? This seems abusive. This seems controlling. I can't just pretend and agree to disagree when it's about human rights and dignity, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: And so listen to the kids. If they want to set boundaries, do it, please. And then use that to kind of connect to yourself and be like, do you actually want to be in relationship and uphold transphobic and homophobic people as the most wise, loving people. No!
Krispin: Right. I mean, I love this because if you have kids that are noticing like, hey, being around grandma does not feel good to me. Good job, because you've raised a kid that feels comfortable, getting in touch with their own emotional experience and showing, it even if maybe you are not there yet.
DL: And I do think, you mentioned attachment panic can be brought up when a partner's like, hey, your family seems kind of shitty. Same thing can happen with kids. When they grow up and they're like, wait, Grandpa seems kind of racist. Wait, grandpa voted for Trump?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Wait, why is grandma reading a biography of Melania? You know, it's like, listen to your kids.
Krispin: Right.
DL: If they're having a really hard time being like, if someone believes that, that I don't feel safe around them, please listen.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such a good point. Yeah. Because yeah, the whole dysfunctional system is just like, yeah, the parents should be able to hold whatever views they want and act however they want, and the kids just need to comply.
DL: They better comply. Or they're the problem.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know, they're racist, homophobic controlling angry patriarchal ways are never the problem. And I think that's just what we're kind of telling folks here today. They are the problem.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: We’re here to validate that. That's the problem. Not us just trying to be fully formed humans who just want basic human rights and dignity for all.
Krispin: Right?
DL: Oh my God, we're so bad, Krispin. We're such rebels. We're the worst people ever.
Krispin: Right. Oh my God. Yeah. I really hope that if you have gone through this partner experience, whether you're like the person in the enmeshed family or on the outside, I just hope this has been validating because I feel like this is a conversation that gets very, very rarely talked about, but I hear about it all the time, because it feels so excruciating for both parties involved.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: To see the pain, but also for the person that's trying to process like, okay, I want to be in this healthier place with my partner in our family system, but I still feel tied into this old dysfunctional family system.
DL: Yeah. One thing I love about this entire conversation, we didn't talk about Christianity or God once, and I'm going to suggest to everyone, you should do the same.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Especially in. Religious authoritarian spaces, they will use religion to hide their actions right under the guise of Christianity, and Christianity of course is good. I would say leave Christianity out of it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Don't let them use that as a cover, and talk about the actual issues, the actual patterns, the actual dynamics happening, because Christians love –
Krispin: DL, it would be fine. This would all go away if people would just remember—
DL: Matthew 18!
Krispin: –the Lord's commandment to honor thy father and mother. No. And Matthew 18, right? I mean, that's a whole other thing, right?
DL: We're, we're breaking the law of the Lord by talking about your parents on a podcast, right? Without going to them first, which actually we have talked to them, so, but what, you know what I mean?
Krispin: Yeah, we've talked about this before, but I think it is so worth repeating, which is that people will use that, they will say – I've done this before where I had a conversation with my parents. It went nowhere. They made it clear that they were not going to respect my boundaries.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So I withdrew, and then they were like, wait, why aren't you talking to us about what the problem is? That’s the Christian thing to do. The Christian thing to do is to go and — but what that allows them to do is for me to say, hey, you did X, Y, and Z and it bothered me. And then for them to say, well, you shouldn't be upset by it. What I did was fine.
DL: Yeah. So I say, take Christianity out of this equation and you will see the patterns so clearly.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: However, when you've been indoctrinated with an inch of your life of being a Christian, that is really hard to do so we get that.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Because that's how we were with your family.
Krispin: I think that's another thing that comes up here often is that for a lot of folks there's – it might even kind of verge into OCD – a little bit of this obsessive thinking of, if I cut my parents off am I doing something wrong?
DL: That is one of the goals of these parenting methods, is to give the kids scrupulosity, so they'll never stray.
Krispin: Exactly. So it's this idea of, if I'm not handling the conflict in the right way, which is the way that my parents want, where we talk it out and they tell me why I'm wrong.
DL: Oh, the way that privileges the abuser?
Krispin: Right. Exactly. Or if I'm just like going no contact or low contact a lot of times those feelings of guilt will come up and there will be this voice in your brain that says you're doing something really wrong.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And it's hard because partners are like, I see this so clearly they're just shitty to you. You have every right, every reason to just put them out of your life. And for the person in the middle of it, not only is there the attachment panic, but there can also be these really intense feelings of guilt that are kind of hard to explain or understand.
DL: If you didn’t grow up like this it is hard to understand, but that's why we keep saying it's the religion plus the authoritarianism that makes such a toxic stew. And I think this is such a great example of that. Did we fix everything?
Krispin: Like I said, I think it's so great to share these stories. We don't have all the answers, but if we can just talk about what this experience is like and more people are talking about this experience together, I think that's really powerful.
DL: Yeah, and I agree. I haven't heard a lot of people, discuss this from a partner perspective, so I'm glad that you made me talk about this today. Can we talk really quick about what's coming up in STRONGWILLED?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Okay. We are slowly working on more chapters. We have to talk about gender. We have to talk about
Krispin: Childhood indoctrination
DL: Childhood indoctrination. The sort of big news is Krispin is going to let me do a miniseries, a side quest, here on the podcast about the Hunger Games.
But guess what? There's real connections in the Hunger Games, obviously to the political situation in America, but also to the reality that violence against children is essential to fascism and to continuing on authoritarian power. So guess what y'all? We're going be talking about the Hunger Games as we continue to work on our chapters.
I'm also very excited to slowly be working on some discussion prompts for the Substack community, in the hopes of getting people to start to process their childhoods, and eventually moving towards an oral history project. So stay tuned.
Thanks for being with us. Thanks for listening even during these intensely triggering times. I hope everyone's taking care of themselves. I hope you're all doing okay. As okay as we can be.
Krispin: And if you're listening to this in fall of October 25, because earlier this year, you were like, I'm just trying to survive, I can't think about this now. Welcome back and we're glad that you took the space you needed to survive the current political situation.
DL: Wow. I'm so intrigued that you think we will exist in October, 2025.
Krispin: I thought you were intrigued that I was thinking that people would not listen and come back to it! But I've heard from people that were like, yeah, I couldn't engage for a while, but I did eventually listen.
DL: Yeah. Totally.
Krispin: And it makes sense. I mean, I think you were talking about like, yeah, some people don't want to engage. I think that there's a lot of wisdom in thinking about, can I engage right now?
DL: Yes ,totally. Oh, we don't shame or judge anyone for not listening to us.
Krispin: Right. But I'm very excited, um, about Hunger Games and continuing to write about this stuff. We'll, we'll just keep going. Thank you all so much for listening. This probably will be our last conversation for a while about estrangement.
DL: Yep.
Krispin: That being said, if you haven't listened to the Q&A where we tied up a lot of loose ends on the Patreon, like I said, like DL said, you can head over there to the Patreon and listen to that. I would highly suggest it.
DL: Yeah. Thanks everyone, and we'll be back soon.
Krispin: Bye!
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