Welcome to STRONGWILLED, the multimedia project aimed at helping survivors of religious authoritarian parenting methods develop autonomy and find solidarity.
We’re taking a side quest and spending a few episodes discussing The Hunger Games series, it’s analysis of power dynamics and violence against children. We’ll be recapping each movie from the original trilogy. Please send any questions or comments to strongwilledproject @ gmail.com, and we might include it in an episode.
You can listen here or find STRONGWILLED wherever you normally get your podcasts.
As always, this is a survivor-led and survivor-supported publication. If you appreciate our work (and our ad-free podcast!) please consider supporting us financially or sharing about the podcast on your social media channels.
(transcript has been lightly edited for clarity)
DL: Hello and welcome to STRONGWILLED, the podcast about religious authoritarian parenting methods and also the Hunger Games.
Krispin: I feel like we deserve some credit for not totally rebranding our podcast for a fourth time.
DL: Focus on the Hunger Games.
Krispin: Yes. Right.
DL: Wouldn't that be a great name for a podcast?
Krispin: Yeah. We can do a little series on the Hunger Games. And we don't have to rename our podcast a new confusing name, like The Bad Place.
DL: This is the Bad Place Podcast. Okay.
Krispin: The Bad Place Podcast.
DL: So one of us in this partnership, in this duo, gets little bees in their bonnet and wants to totally pivot and do something that is just the only thing they want to talk about. The other one of us. It's sort of along for the ride.
Krispin: Yeah. It feels like this obligation to our listeners, you know, what did they sign up for? Did they sign up for this?
DL: What did they sign up for? They definitely signed up for this.
Krispin: They signed up for the DL train
DL: Choo choo! No, we are doing a side quest! That's what we're calling it.
Krispin: Okay. Yeah.
DL: We've been in the throes of reading Dr. Dobson books, being in the trenches for y'all, surviving this hellish landscape that is America. And I want to talk about the Hunger Games for a few episodes. You got to talk about estrangement.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: That was your side quest. That was the Krispin choo choo train.
Krispin: I get to talk about estrangement. You get to talk about Hunger Games.
DL: I get to talk about Hunger Games. This is my time now. But you know, Tiktok’s obsessed with the Hunger Games because Suzanne Collins came out with a new book.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: This happens every few years, all the millennials get to talk about the Hunger Games. And so I'm throwing my hat into the ring. We're going to do four episodes talking about the four movies. So if you want to pause this, go watch the first one, do it. Or you can just coast on the nostalgia.
And it does have connections to what we're doing at STRONGWILLED, which we will get into.
Krispin: Yeah. It's like 20 bucks for all four movies on Apple TV if you don't want to support Bezos.
DL: Yeah, support Apple, a really great company that is not doing anything bad at all. Let’s not talk about this. Rent them from your library. I don’t know.
Krispin: Yes, That's a great thing. But yeah, because I don't think that they are streaming anywhere. Maybe they will be at some point.
DL: Ooh. They're being suppressed. I'm just kidding. Great! Okay, Krispin, we're doing it. We're doing this little side quest.
I guess the most important question is what are the Hunger Games?
Krispin: Yeah. You told me you were going to ask me this question and I was like, wait, wait. Do I know what they are? The Hunger Games is when they take a bunch of kids,
DL: Uh huh.
Krispin: Put them in an arena. To fight, to the death, to commemorate the suppression of a political uprising that happened several decades ago.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: In this sci-fi world.
DL: In this sci-fi world. Great. What a great little recap of what the Hunger Games are. You did great. I could tell you were nervous about recapping that.
I think I'm just going to be a spoil sport. You know, I'm going to spoil everything. But one of the things in the — I don't know, I was going to say in the books, but it could be just in the fan fiction I read.
Okay. Krispin, tell the people what is your experience with the Hunger Games franchise. Are you a book reader? Are you a movie watcher? Tell me.
Krispin: Yes. I've seen the movies. I saw this movie on opening night with you. It was transformative.
DL: We saw it opening night?
Krispin: We did.
DL: Really?
Krispin: Or maybe not that Thursday night, midnight, but we saw it the next night.
DL: Wow!
Krispin: I remember being in the theater with you. So I've seen these movies several times. I love them so much. That being said, I've only watched the movies. And that's a little different than your experience of this story of this universe, of this world, right?
DL: Yeah. Okay. So you do like the movies. You are always up for a rewatch, which I am not. You know, I've not really rewatched the movies I don't think, maybe, but and I totally Peetaed off. Like I just couldn't even do the last two movies very much.
Krispin: Peeta’ed off.
DL: Peeta’ed off. Ooh, that sounds sexual. Which we'll get into that.
But I remember reading the first Hunger Games book. I was on a little hangout trip with some friends, and I just was obsessed. I was obsessed. And I had to read all three books. I got them illegally on my Kindle, so I didn't pay for them. And I just remember being like, this is good. All of this is good. I'm obsessed. I loved the love triangle story, but obviously everything else going on in the Hunger Games books was like so interesting to me.
Now I read them I think in my mid to late twenties.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I think my oldest child was like a toddler or something. And so then coming back and rereading them as a parent of kids who are old enough to be in the Hunger Games, and raising them in America, it's been a very different experience rereading the books.
Krispin: So what you're saying is when you first read them, really what was top of mind was the love triangle storyline?
DL: Yeah, and also oh, this is so interesting to think about this control tactic and how to resist and how to fight. You know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: That was interesting, right?
Krispin: Yeah. I mean, I, I think this was, because Hunger Games was like kind of the big teen series after Twilight. Okay. So it makes sense that there was sort of that like framework of like, that's the primary storyline. But I feel like looking back on it now, you're like, that's just sort of like B story.
DL: It's sort of B story, but the characters, as they're revealed through some of this teenage, romantic stuff, I think is very interesting and has continued to keep my interest.
But yeah, I think coming back to this story as a parent is really horrifying and creates some extra layers.
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: I got really into some fanfic about Hunger Games. There's this one called Peeta's Games, and it's all written from Peeta's point of view. The Hunger Games books are all written from Katniss's point of view. She's our main protagonist. She's an icon. We'll talk about her.
The Peeta’s games is so well written. It's all free, it's all on, you know, the fanfic sites, everyone should read it. That was so helpful. And then the movies are good! The movies are good, which as you know, doesn't always happen.
Krispin: Yeah. We were starting to watch it and you were like, they did not have to be this good. The movies did not have to be this good. And they are.
DL: They didn't. And they are. And the movies bring out some certain things. Of course, as a reader, I’m like, the books are better. All of it, but I think all of it works together.
So that is how we're coming to this. I'm not an expert, but I am so intrigued by the existential questions raised by the Hunger Games. Plus the reason we are doing this right now and how it connects to STRONGWILLED, our project, is because the Hunger Games fundamentally is about a society that uses violence against children to terrorize and control the population.
And our theory here at STRONGWILLED is that Christian fascism as seen through evangelical parenting methods is predicated on the abuse and indoctrination of children to carry on its aims.
Krispin: Mm hm. Right.
DL: And so we're, we're going to see some of these themes come up in the Hunger Games.
We're going to talk about that. We're also going to have some fun. So it's going to be intense. It's going to be silly. And, hey, that's the deal. Mayfield train, bitches.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Intense and silly. Are you ready? Are you ready for this, Krispin?
Krispin: So ready. Yes.
DL: So, we just rewatched the first movie. How does it hit you now in 2025 versus when you first watched it? When did it come out?
Krispin: In 2012. In 2012 I was definitely in that Shane Claiborne place.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Of like kind of apolitical, individual movements on the ground. Your everyday actions impact these big systems.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: I feel very differently now and therefore I see it really differently now. I think watching it the first time I felt all a lot of responsibility for, like, being part of the Capitol. Yeah. And now I am like, I think you see through this movie there are these huge power systems at work promoted by these men.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: That hold a lot of power and individuals actually don't have a lot of influence.
DL: Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Krispin: So I don't know. I think I see these oppressive systems slightly differently.
DL: Yeah. And I think when I first was reading the books and then when the movie came out, you know, I was really thinking like this is a very far in the future, very dystopian, version of what the United States turns into. And now I'm like, okay, it's not that far.
Krispin: I remember when I first – I'm just thinking of this now. When I first watched it, I felt like the US is the Capitol and impoverished countries in other places are the far out districts.
DL: Oh, interesting. So you, so you were thinking of this as like a global book?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh.
DL: Uh huh. When in reality it is all about the United States. The author, Suzanne College, this is pretty well known, she said she got the idea for the Hunger Games when she was flipping through these channels on her TV, and it kept going between footage of the Iraq war and reality TV.
Krispin: Mm.. Mm-hmm.
DL: So, to US propaganda machines and just flicking back and forth one to another, she said, what if I wrote a book about this. Suzanne Collins is the shit. I don't even know that much about her. But she wrote this book basically about tyranny, about authoritarianism.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: About totalitarianism and how, you know, people in power control through terror. Right? And I just think this book has become ever more important. And I'm just glad that it keeps getting a resurgence. She keeps writing more books. Because the situation continues to get more intense.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But we thought, let's just go through the movie and some of the themes in this first movie, and we're going to talk it through. And then at the end, we're going to have some fun facts. Some fun little segments. You are going to talk about who's most attractive in this movie, which I'm very curious to hear about.
Krispin: Hahaha.
DL: So all that's coming, but first let's just go through the movie a little bit. The movie starts out in District 12 so, Krispin, how many districts are there? In this world of Panem?
Krispin: When we start the movie there's 12.
DL: There's 12 districts. Okay. What do you know about the setup of all this?
Krispin: It's so funny – you're the expert and you’re quizzing me.
DL: I am.
Krispin: The higher up in number, the further out the districts are, which means that the further the districts are out, there's usually more poverty and less resources.
DL: Okay. Yeah.
Krispin: I think – is that true?
DL: That's one way of looking at it. I also think just the way it's set up is there is the Capitol, which is called the Capitol, of Panem. And then there's 12 districts surrounding it. And each one is sort of like, you create these resources, you mine, or you fish, or you do technology. or something, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Supposedly district one is luxury goods. District two is, I forget, but they kind of end up making weapons and training the peacekeepers and all that. So there's all these different things. The important thing is, the way that this is set up in both the book and the movie is we are introduced to Katniss, who is 16 years old, and she lives in District 12, which is the mining district, and they're very, very, very poor.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And what we are told in the books is that all these natural disasters were happening. You know, huge parts of the United States were swallowed up by the ocean, right? So climate catastrophe.
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: So then there's all this fighting for resources and things that happen with all the climate catastrophes. Some stuff goes down, they decide to relocate and kind of regroup and do these 13 districts at a capitol located in the Rocky Mountains of the United States, since, I guess Washington DC was underwater at this point.
Then there's a rebellion. The districts rebel against the Capitol. Nuclear weapons are involved. District 13, which was the main instigator, gets obliterated.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And then what's left of humanity – because there's not tons of humans left at this point. You know, they're in the districts and the capitols like, we literally can't afford to have another rebellion. There's just not enough of us. So to keep y'all in check, we're going to do this thing once a year where we have a reaping where we choose one boy and one girl between the ages of, what is it, 12 and 18?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: They have to come to the Capitol, they comPeeta against each other. There's one victor, and it's basically this time of national repentance for the rebellions. And then gratitude to the Capitol that instead of us all dying out, we just do these symbolic games.
Krispin: Right. Which are also very focused on entertainment.
DL: Yes. So that's the second horrifying factor, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: First we have just the initial violence. And the instilling of violence throughout the country through these games, right? Then there's this added layer of the Capitol forces everyone to watch the games, turns it into a spectacle, and the people who live in the Capitol get really into it.
And we'll talk about the Capitol in just a little bit, but that's sort of how we're introduced to this world and to what the Hunger Games are. What district do you think we're in? We live in Oregon.
Krispin: Okay, so I think that that question brings up a huge question I have when I compare the world of Panem to the US.
DL: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Where the hell is the Capitol in the US?
DL: Oh my god. Can I tell you where it is?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Okay. So what they say in the book, Suzanne is like, it's in the Rocky Mountains. So first of all, doesn't that kind of make your brain itch a little bit?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Like why? Why that? Now some people say maybe it's in Utah and this is about Mormonism..
Krispin: It's funny because here's where my brain breaks, is the Capitol looks like San Francisco
DL: In the movie?
Krispin: Uh huh. In the movie it looks like San Francisco.
DL: Okay. San Francisco's underwater, bud.
Krispin: Okay, but I'm just saying if we're making comparisons, right?
DL: Yes. Okay. Uh huh.
Krispin: And District 12 looks like Wyoming is what I thought, right?
DL: What? You've never been to Wyoming.
Krispin: No, that's true. Or Appalachia.
DL: There we go.
Krispin: Right. But I'm thinking of like – I mean, I'm still going to stick with Wyoming because we're talking about the Rockies, right?
DL: But District 12 is not in the Rockies. That's where the Capitol is.
Krispin: I know. I'm talking about like what are the cultural comparisons, right?
DL: Okay, okay. Yeah.
Krispin: So if we see a picture of the Capitol we're like, what does that look like in the US today? That looks like San Francisco, Seattle. Progressive, rich.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And a lot of that is about the style and the kind of queerness, like gender queerness we see in those places.
DL: Oh, we'll get into that later.
Krispin: Yeah. So we'll get into all of that, but it just breaks my brain because. District 12 looks like, you know, Appalachia, but they are very not authoritarian minded there. And in the US it feels flip-flopped.
DL: Yeah. So we do know District 12 is in Appalachia. JD Vance territory.
Krispin: Right.
DL: But also we are told that Katniss has dark hair, olive skin, and gray eyes as do a lot of the more poor people. In that. So that's just interesting. And I think Suzanne Collins was like, yeah, nobody matches up to that, and she did that sort of on purpose, like she's trying to take ethnicity out of the picture in a way that's kind of interesting.
Krispin: Huh
DL: Although she does use race in other ways that are really interesting. But let's get back to my biggest fun fact, which is that if this is in the Rockies, if the Capitol is in the Rockies, there are these big underground military bunkers at a military base in Colorado Springs, Colorado. So that could be where the Capitol ends up being is Colorado Springs, Colorado. Krispin!
Krispin: Haha! Wait, are you, are you connecting these dots or are people saying this?
DL: No, that's what they said on Reddit.
Krispin: Really?
DL: Because they're like, if it's in the Rockies, there's these bunkers for in an emergency, if the United States, Washington, DC—
Krispin: So you're not saying it could be in CO, you're saying this is actually lore.
DL: This is a real theory. This is a real theory. Colorado Springs, Colorado,
Krispin: 97881
DL: Turns out to be the Capitol of the authoritarian regime. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I found that out today.
Krispin: Wow.
DL: Because the Rockies, you're like, well that is, maybe it's close to Colorado Spring. What? One of the bunkers is on the military bases there.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: So that's the James Dobson connection. Which I love.
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: Now, what district are you and I in? We would basically be underwater.
Krispin: Right.
DL: But, you know, Eastern Oregon would be part of district three. District three does technology and ends up being kind of rebellious, which I was like, sure.
Krispin: Uh huh
DL: Sure. That, that is, you know, that is working.
Krispin: And we're on the suburbs of that district.
DL: Yeah. So it's related to propaganda, and propaganda is a huge part of these books and, what Suzanne Collins wants to be talking about in these books. And so District three is a part of producing propaganda, but then they also can be very rebellious and critical of the propaganda.
District 12, where Katniss is from, they do not rebel. That is sort of how the book starts is just this acceptance of what happens every single year, which is the reaping. Do you want to talk a little bit about the reaping and some of the psychological things happening with this whole thing?
Krispin: Yeah, so basically it's what, every four years? No? How often is it?
DL: Every year. Oh my God.
Krispin: Hahaha. Every year there are two teenagers chosen for the reaping and basically part of the dynamic here is in district 12, because of their lack of resources, these are two kids that are just doomed to die. Basically.
DL: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Krispin: Because in the Capitol, for example, they have teenagers there that train all the time. They're like Olympic athletes. They very likely could win. In District 12 they're not going to win. So it's just this waiting every year to find out, are you going to die?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Is someone you care about going to die?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And then one element of this, I don't exactly know, you'll have to fill in on this, but there's a part of the economy that is also a part of this. So if you need more money, you need more bread, you need more food, you can put your name in more times.
DL: Exactly. To get extra food for your family. Right. But then now you've entered one more slip of paper with your name on it into the reaping bowl.
Krispin: Right, exactly. And that really stood out to me because it was one of those things where it's like you're watching it and, you know, it's very like kind of sci-fi where it's like, oh, this is just their normal life. But looking at it from the outside, you're like, what? This system is just so fucked up.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Right? And also, like you said, people are just like, yeah, this is normal. Which makes me be like, what is it about our world that we think is just normal that's really fucked up?
DL: Hey, save your existential crisis for the end of the episode, Krispin.
Krispin: Right.
DL: But exactly that. I mean, the thing that is so haunting about this book is, especially coming at it from a parent perspective, thinking about raising kids in this society, in this world. Think about the first time a kid asks you, What are the Hunger Games?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And you have to explain to your kid. You know, who knows what age that would be? Five, six, seven? They hear about it at school and then you have to explain to your kid what it is. Right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And you'll be like, you probably won't get picked or – you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
Who knows. To me that is so horrifying to think about. How do you explain to your kid, this is just the violent society you were born into. Hopefully it won’t impact you. You know, there's no point in resisting. And I think that Katniss and then Peeta and Gale are three really interesting examples of how different types of folks respond to being born into this violent, oppressive society.
Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh. And so you've introduced Katniss. Peeta is the other, is the young man that's chosen. The teenage boy that's chosen. And then Gale is sort of Katniss's love interest. He's another person about their age, right? Yeah.
DL: Yeah. I mean we don't have to re recap all of it, but what's interesting is Katniss going into the reaping, which is how the book starts, her main goal is just to protect her younger sister Prim.
This the first year Prim is eligible for the reaping, but Prim only has one slip of paper, whereas Katniss has many, because she's been taking out, you know, to get more grain and stuff, she's been doing this and it's cumulative. So her and her buddy Gale have lots of slips of paper with their name on it.
Krispin: Right. And the reason, maybe I'm going off the deep end here, but the reason that she has all these slips of paper in is because her dad was killed in a mining accident because there wasn't safe working conditions.
DL: Right. Yeah.
Krispin: So looking at this from a systemic standpoint, she's forced into this place where she's having to put her name in for more bread because this whole system killed her father, which then puts her family at risk of starvation.
DL: Yeah. So people in district 12 are subsistence living, right? Katniss, there's this whole backstory of how after her dad died in the mine, her mom became catatonic with depression. So Katniss, they almost starved to death, because they had no food and there were no social safety nets, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And Katniss wasn't 12 yet to start to put in her name and to get extra grain. So this is a very important backstory. It's in the movie, it's in the books. But basically when Katniss is almost dying of starvation, she's looking for food.
Peeta sees her. She's 11, he's 11. His family is middle class. They work at a bakery. He sees that she's basically dying of starvation. His mom yells at Katniss, he purposely burns some bread with like lots of nuts and fruit in it. His mom hits him, gives him a black eye, and is like, go feed the burnt bread to the pigs.
But then he throws it to Katniss. So she takes it home, they eat that. Once she has enough food in her, she's like, I'm going to start to hunt like my dad did. And so she slips out through the gates, these fences that surround District 12 supposedly to keep them safe. From what?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right. But they’re not allowed to go into the forest.
DL: Yeah, it just keeps people out of the woods and they’re electrified fences, supposedly, but they're not always on. And so Katniss starts hunting. That's when she meets Gale. They hunt, they trade, they do all this stuff that is illegal and could get them shot and killed. But she's like, but at least we're eating.
And plenty of the peacekeepers, the guards, they want fresh meat too. So they just look the other way. They buy the meat. Mm-hmm. There's all these secondary, you know, trades going on.
Krispin: Like black markets.
DL: Black market stuff, right? So Katniss is a survivor. And this is what we know going in. She's good at hunting, she's good at surviving. My personal opinion is Katniss is autistic.
I mean, the beginning of the book, she is not a sympathetic character. At all. She loves her sister Prim, and that's it. I mean, it starts off with this cat that Prim is obsessed with. Katniss is like, ugh, I tried to drown that kitten when Prim brought it home.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Because we did not have enough food to feed one more thing. And then it turned out to be a pretty good mouser, so I'm okay with it. But I was like, wait a minute. When you were 12, you tried to drown a kitten that your little sister brought you? You know what I'm saying?
Krispin: Yes, yes. Totally.
DL: That's the opposite of what you're supposed to do when you're making a likable character. They're supposed to save the cat. Right?
Krispin: Right.
DL: Not try and drown the kitten. So that's Katniss.
Krispin: Right. And for, for Katniss, it's not just this economic system, but like you said, her dad died and her mom went catatonic. She had to be the grownup before she was even 12.
DL: Oh yeah. And she says, I never forgave my mom. I'm not the type to forgive. And so she views it as her mom peaced out. Left everything to Katniss. It's kind of tragic. But I'll get to that in just a second.
So with the reaping, Katniss's whole thing is like, just pretend everything's fine for Prim, you know, you, everybody gets dressed up, you go to the thing. She's kind of worried about her friend Gale, because he comes from the same situation. So he has even more slips of paper than her.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Because he has two brothers and a mom, you know, that he's trying to keep there. But then the unthinkable happens. Prim’s name is called. So Katniss freaks out and then volunteers as tribute in place of her sister. So, you know, in the span of a few minutes, Katniss is like, there's no way I can let my little sister, I'm going to do it. And then we're off to the races as far as the book is concerned.
Krispin: Right. And before we even go there, we see in this scene the first clash of these two experiences. So, it's so solemn. It's so devastating. I mean, if you're watching the movie, you're probably crying, right? But the Capitol is playing this video that's like very patriotic.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Like, this is a great chance, this is a chance that you could be bathed in riches. You know? And so that always stood out to me, like this stark difference between this patriotism, and then this group of people that are like, fuck this, we don't believe this propaganda. We don't buy into it, et cetera.
DL: Well, that's what's so fascinating about this reaping day, and how it serves to terrorize people in these districts. And what's so fascinating is we're seeing all this from Katniss's perspective, and Katniss is just like, I have to protect my sister. So she volunteers, but then the second she's up there, her internal world is I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to let the cameras see me have a hint of vulnerability. I want them to think I am a threat. I'm going to win this. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: She doesn't really think she can win, but she's a fighter. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So she goes into like warrior mode like, instantaneously.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: And what's interesting is then the second person who's called is Peeta. And Peeta is, you know, Katniss from her perspective, she's like, oh no, not him.
Because she doesn't know how to repay him or even say thanks for him. And so she's always felt indebted to him and like, this is really weird. She's never spoken to him since that but she has this weird connection with him.
Krispin: See, I didn't know this.
DL: Yeah. And now she's like, great, I'm going to have to kill him to win this thing. You know, because there's only one.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And Peeta meanwhile is just like, from his perspective, if you read Peeta's games, he's just like, oh no, I can't believe this is happening. And he is pissed. He is pissed that, first of all, he has an older brother who does not volunteer in place of Peeta.
Krispin: Oh, huh. Uh huh.
DL: And that's what you're supposed to do. I mean, you're not supposed to volunteer, right?
Krispin: Right.
DL: You're just supposed to be like, what's done is done. It happens. This is just a sacrifice we have to make to the Capitol to keep peace. It sucks, but we're all in it. There's no good – you know?
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And Peeta is, when he gets called, he's looking around like, why are we all accepting this? Why are we doing this year after year? Why are we not rioting? I mean, he knows why it's because they would get shot and killed and tortured, you know?
Krispin: Right.
DL: But he is just fundamentally so mad at the Capitol for what it has orchestrated with all of this. Plus he's in love with Katniss and he's like, oh my God, now I am have to do this thing with her. You know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: What's so funny is these two are living in two totally different worlds, and I think what's really interesting is how the movie tries to sort show both of their different approaches.
But I love that Peeta is like, what the fuck? Why are we not rioting? Why are we accepting this? And Katniss is like, don't let them see a single tear, you know, you've got to win this.
Krispin: Uh huh, Uh huh, yeah.
DL: I don't know. It’s just so interesting how the psychological impacts show up differently for folks.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it's very interesting and that scene, I mean, it’s just gut wrenching.
DL: Yeah. So Gale, his whole thing in this is he's really, really angry. And Katniss is always like, I don't understand why Gale's so angry. Like there's no point in being angry.
Gale will go out into the woods and just scream and scream because he's so angry at the Capitol. And so Gale is able to meet with Katniss right before she's sent to the Capitol, after she's reaped. And he's like, you can win this. Get a bow. You're a hunter. You could do this.
You know, he's just like, fight back.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And she's like, okay. I will try. And Peeta, this is so devastating, but you know what happens at Peeta? His family comes to say goodbye to him and his mom is like, District 12 might actually have a victor this year. because like nobody ever wins from District 12.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: There's like two people that have won, one of whom is Haymitch, which maybe we'll get into. But she meant Katniss. So she's hugging Peeta and being like, we might have a winner this year, and she does not mean her son.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: She's like, Katniss could actually win it. Now what happens when Katniss volunteers for her sister? The Capitol people, Effy Trinket, she's like, everyone clap. This is so amazing. This is, this is wonderful. And nobody claps. Which is their own act of defiance, and the one that they felt like they could do. Then they do this signal, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: They put these three fingers to their lips and then hold it to the sky, which is something they do at funerals in District 12. Sort of honoring her. Thanking her. And Katniss is like, whoa. So that's when Katniss first starts to become something bigger than herself, this symbol of something.
Krispin: So if I'm getting that right, that signal is not a signal of resistance at this point.
DL: No. But that is how it is used in this moment.
Krispin: Right. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Because I think watching the movie, you're like, yeah, this is just a signal of resistance.
DL: No. It was a signal of like, at funerals, you know, to say, I love you, I respect you. You know?
Krispin: Interesting.
DL: And so that is what the crowd does in response to Katniss sacrificing herself for her sister. And all of this is being televised, so everyone's seeing it. So Katniss going into the Hunger Games is being talked about already as someone who volunteered for her sister.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: This is an interesting story. The Capitol's really into it. Should we get into the Capitol?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh.
DL: Because Katniss and Peeta are put on a train and whisked off to the Capitol. And now we get to see the Capitol through the eyes of people from District 12. Someone who's extremely poor from District 12, and someone who's slightly better off in District 12 but still, life is a struggle. What stood out to you about the Capitol?
Krispin: Well, I mean, one thing is the fashion. I think that stands out to me the most, actually. The fashion but also just all the food everywhere, right?
DL: Yeah! Yeah. So I think the Capitol, especially after we've seen how hard it is just to get food in District 12, the Capitol is a place of luxury and excess, and it's just very horrifying to look at if you're poor, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Now, Effie Trinket is sort of the representative from the Capitol to District 12. She's sort of like the ridiculous, silly Capitol person that we get to know in the movies and, and through the books. And Katniss just does not know what to do with Effie, obviously.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And she just keeps saying, enjoy the luxury of this train, enjoy, you've earned it. And Katniss is like, what?? What are you saying to me?
Krispin: Uh huh. Right.
DL: Something interesting that happens is on the way to the Capitol, Haymitch is supposed to be their…supervisor?
Krispin: Mentor.
DL: Mentor. And he's supposed to give them tips and tricks on how to win the games. And then while the games are going on, he could be schmoozing with all the rich people in the Capitol trying to get them gifts and presents that could maybe help them in the arena.
But he's drunk out of his mind.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: That's how he's dealing with being a victor, and having to kill kids when he was the victor.
Krispin: Right. Right.
DL: He's just drunk all the time. And both Peeta and Katniss get super pissed at him, and basically fight him and are like, this is not funny. This is our lives. And then he's like, oh my God, I’ve actually got some fighters. So then he's like, basically just do whatever your stylists tell you to do. I do have some plans, but just do that, first of all. So I think what's interesting is right from the get go, both Katniss and Peeta have plans Have plans on not being the typical District 12 tributes, and not dying straight off.
What do you think? What do you see? About that in the movie?
Krispin: Well, I think what's really striking to me there is that Katniss is used to being like, I'm the adult here.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: Right. So we see her kind of like lecture her mom as she's leaving. Like, you have to show up for Prim. Then she takes the same approach to Haymitch. She's just like, you need to help me. She advocates for herself.
DL: She's like, buckle the fuck up. You know?
Krispin: Uh huh. Mm-hmm.
DL: Definitely.
Krispin: But it's really interesting because watching it, I don't exactly understand Peeta here.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Like Katniss, it feels realistic. Peeta, if I was in Peeta's shoes, I would be like, yeah, I'm just going to die.
DL: Yes! And that is a thought that Peeta has like, that's who I am. He's sort of a gentle giant in the books.
Krispin: You and I have both talked about this, like, what would happen in a zombie apocalypse. We're both like, yeah, we would just die.
DL: Yeah. Well, that's how Peeta is, except he sees how the crowd responds to Katniss in District 12 and he's like, oh shit, she could actually do this. You know, his mom is telling him she could win. He's like, she could actually be like a symbol of hope to people. Plus he's in love with her.
Krispin: Right.
DL: So as he's moving towards the Capitol, he suddenly is like, it's my job to make her not just survive and win, but to make her like an icon. And so that is sort of what he's thinking is like, I'm dead no matter what. I'm never going to— But I maybe could help Katniss become something bigger than herself. And protect her and keep her alive.
Krispin: Right. And I don't know if that just doesn't come through in the movie or if I am bad at some of that implicit information sometimes.
DL: No, no, no. I don't think it comes out in the movie. I mean, it can if you know what you're looking for. But Katniss is so confused by Peeta. Because, first of all, she thought he was just, because he cried a bunch, you know, she's not crying.
Krispin: Right. Uh huh.
DL: She's like, that's so weird. You could obviously tell Peeta's been crying. He doesn't care about the camera. So she's like, oh, maybe he's pretending to be weak and fragile, and then in the arena he's just going to kill everybody. She's trying to figure him out.
Krispin: Yeah! Uh huh.
DL: And she's just like, why is he being nice to me? Is he trying to butter me up and then he's going to stab me in the arena? She's just so in her own world.
Krispin: Which is so interesting, thinking about Katniss where she is a survivor, she makes these like bold moves for her own survival, and sometimes they pan out and sometimes they really don't. Right? She's just a 16-year-old trying to figure out the world.
DL: Yes. Totally. In her traumatized little way. And what she's really confused by is Peeta. It starts when they actually get to the Capitol and the crowds were there. And Peeta starts waving at the crowd and smiling at them. And they're all like, ah! And Katniss is just horrified.
Krispin: Right. Uh huh.
DL: Like, they're going to watch us die. There's no way I’m smiling back. But Peeta's like, Hey, some of these people could be rich sponsors and they could send us some stuff in the games. And so then Katniss is like, oh shit, he's playing the game. And that's what Peeta does. Peeta is turns out to be extremely good in front of the cameras.
Krispin: Right!
DL: He ends up right, having this incredible rapport with the Capitol propaganda mouth pieces like Caesar Flickerman. Peeta becomes the PR engine for Katniss. Again, she's not even aware. But it turns out this is a strategy he and Haymitch cooked up.
Krispin: Okay. Wait, Haymitch did too? Because in the movie, on Caesar's interview on tv, he's basically like, I'm in love with Katniss. And then she gets so pissed at him for saying that. And then Haymitch is like, no, he made you look desirable.
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: I wasn't sure if Haymitch was in on that or if he was just analyzing it.
DL: Yeah, and Haymitch was sort of playing with both Katniss and Peeta, and keeping them apart. Like it gets a little complicated. We don't need to get into all of that, but that is what's going on. And Katniss is totally in the dark about Peeta's whole goal is to keep her alive.
And to make her desirable to the Capitol, because again, she's autistic, so she's very blunt. She doesn't smile, she doesn't have friends, this is who she is.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And so Peeta's like, well, I can help with that whole image. The other thing about her image is, this whole thing about stylists – and this seems like a weird, d plot point. But it actually turns out to be important – are these people from the Capitol who dress Peeta and Katniss, who are with them, advise them in some ways. Create the costumes, create the outfits, create the look.
And Katniss's stylist is this guy named Cinna, his partner Portia is Peeta’s stylist. And they come up with this thing about, it's not going to be about coal mining, which is what everyone else does, but it's going to be about fire.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And so they turn Katniss into the Girl on Fire. Plus she's wearing this mocking jay pin. So that's another important thing just about the image of Katniss turning her into something much bigger than herself.
Krispin: Right. Yep. Uh huh.
DL: And so Cinna and Portia actually end up having a huge role in the books, in the movies, and they're really interesting looks at what resistance from inside the Capitol looks like. So I think they're fascinating. Right?
Krispin: Yes, right. Yeah. And while we're on this like image management PR piece, I find that to be, I mean, there are so many eerie, unsettling moments in this movie. But one of them is when Caesar and Peeta are on this stage, kinda this like late night talk show vibe. And they're just like chatting away and you're like, yeah, the whole premise of this is Peeta's about to be killed.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right? But it's just laughing and making jokes and being charming.
DL: And you have to, because if you don't, the Capitol will kill all your family. That’s the stakes. You have to pretend, you have to act like the Capitol's the best, the Hunger Games are okay.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: So yeah, there's that second layer of horror.
Krispin: And when you talked about Suzanne Collins and what inspired this, I'm like, it's right there. That's where it is, is this talk show making jokes while these horrors are going on.
DL: And Katniss cannot play this game. She just cannot.
Krispin: I feel like you might relate!
DL: So Peeta goes into overdrive playing the game. He says to the audience, I'm in love with her, that's what makes this so sad. You know, only one of us is going to make it home. It's not going to be me because I love her.
Krispin: Right. And he is doing this implicit critique of the system.
DL: Exactly.
Krispin: And Caesar says, oh, it's bad luck.
DL: Bad luck. Yeah.
Krispin: It’s bad luck. He can't, of course he's not going to say like, yeah, this is really fucked up.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: He's like, yeah, it's bad luck.
DL: Yeah, totally. And so in the first book, we see all the tributes having to play the game, having to do all this. Then the games start. So before the games, basically Katniss does come off as a threat because she shows she's good with the bow and arrow, all this stuff.
So some of the children have been training to become Victor, so they're going to target her. Peeta decides with Haymitch, he's like, I'm going to pretend to be a part of that pack of the career tributes. Tell them I can give them intel on Katniss, all this stuff. In reality, I'll be with them until they find her, and then I'll just kill as many of them as I can to protect her.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Katniss doesn't know any of this.
Krispin: And we don't know this as viewers, right? Maybe if you're reading the book.
DL: No, you don't know when you're reading the first book! But Peeta's whole thing is, I'm going to run and grab the bow and arrow and save that for Katniss until the Careers find her, give her that, then she’ll have a shot at actually winning this whole thing. Because if she runs for it, all the Careers are just going to kill her.
She'll be dead within the first. Few hours. Because there's always a blood bath in the beginning of the Hunger Games. I mean, it gets so dark.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: It's hard to talk about. Let's talk about how the movie deals with the inherent violence against children of the games. Because I thought the movie did it masterfully. They hardly show the violence and instead you just feel the horror of, oh my God. Like this is actually what's happening.
Krispin: Yeah. Right. And it's really striking because I had just watched a movie with like stylized glorified violence, and it just was like, yeah, this movie and this story is like such an indictment of how we think about violence as entertainment.
DL: Yep.
Krispin: And that really came through, right? There's just no way that they would've or could have done a, you know, this is a cool action movie. It's just horror.
DL: Violence as propaganda, as entertainment. Right. I think the movie does such a good job because something you don't get in the book, in the movie, you'll be in this really intense scene in the middle of the Hunger Games, and then it'll cut to the Gamemaker's room where they're literally orchestrating and controlling all this and seeing what will play best on camera. How can we –
Krispin: It's very Truman show.
DL: Yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Krispin: Right? For those of us that grew up watching Truman show, it's like, oh!
DL: Here we go! The Gamemaker, Seneca Crane, you know, is the Christophe of the Truman Show. But like, how can we orchestrate violence? How can we create conflict here? And, and it's just so unsettling to watch.
So Katniss has no clue what Peeta's plan is. She just is trying to survive. Haymitch tells her, don't try and get the big supplies. Go hide in the woods until it's all over, you know? So she's sort of doing that. Peeta, meanwhile, is with the Careers. They eventually do find Katniss. She's gone through some really horrific shit.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And before the game started, her and Peeta had had this conversation that I think is really important. You know, she's like, I just kind of want to survive. And Peeta is like. I want to be who I am. I don't want them to take that away from me. I am not just a piece in the Capitol's games.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: I want to be me to the end. And for him, that means holding on to his humanity. He does not want to kill anyone. He does not consider it. And eventually he's like, I might have to do that to keep Katniss alive. But not myself. You know, like if it's for something bigger than me and it's for Katniss, yes, but hopefully not. And hopefully I'll still be able to do it on my terms.
And Katniss is like, oh, that's kind of interesting, but she doesn't see it. You know, she's like, you have that luxury. I don't have that luxury of trying to be myself. I'm a survivor. That's so interesting.
Krispin: Right. And is that driven by I have to take care of Prim?
DL: I mean, yeah. She's like, my family can't survive without me. So I gotta get back.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Because that's the thing is when she says, I'm a survivor, I don't think that it's really about the sense of like, I care about my own life. It's just this, like, I'm responsible for the people in my life.
DL: Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Exactly that. And so Katniss is like, great for you, you have the luxury of trying to remain true to yourself in this horrific experience. But I don't.
So the games go on. One of the most intense things that ends up happening is that Katniss helps out a younger tribute named Rue.
Who's 12, who's from District 11. Rue is described as having dark skin and black hair. And there's lots of interesting stuff about District 11, which maybe we'll get into in the second movie recap. But Rue is killed and then Katniss—
Krispin: And in the movie there's explicit elements of race. So Rue is killed, and then we see District 11 where she comes from. There's rioting, they try to take on the Capitol.
DL: Why? Why did they riot? After Rue dies, Katniss is sobbing and crying, and of course it's being filmed. And then Katniss collects all these wildflowers and then arranges them around Rue so that the cameras will see it. And does, you know, a little tribute.
So basically Katniss in her own little way, she's not trying to do that, but she absolutely creates this inciting incident by honoring and grieving the death of this little child. And with the flowers surrounding rush, she even looks younger. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Right. Yes.
DL: So then this is filmed, people in District 11 are being forced to watch it, so they see it, and then – we don't get this in the books at all but in the movies they start cutting to scenes of District 11, which is mostly people of color. And agriculture! I mean, picking cotton is literally like what they're supposed to do there. They start fighting back against the Peacekeeper. So you're seeing these images of riots, which honestly look very similar to Black Lives Matter protests in America,
Krispin: Right. Well, the thing that I thought of, I was like, I don't know if they were pulling on this, but this scene really makes you think of Emmett Till.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Who is a 14-year-old boy who is lynched. who then his mom was like, we are going to do an open casket.
DL: Yes. Oh, you're crying right now.
Krispin: We are going to force people to see the brutality.
DL: That's so true.
Krispin: And that sparked the civil rights movement.
DL: Part of it, Yeah. Oh. You're so sweet. Look at you crying about this.
Krispin: So I mean, watching this, it's so powerful. Because that's what it feels like. It feels like, here's this teenage Black girl.
DL: Not even a teenager! She's 12.
Krispin: She's 12. Right. And instead of just like, yeah, that's just part of the games, Katniss is like, no, we are going to focus on her death and her as a person and how horrific this is. And it, it sparks a movement.
DL: It sparks a movement. Now, Katniss has no clue that's going on, obviously. She's so upset. The Careers end up finding her, put her up a tree. She thinks Peeta's a part of them, even though he's really trying to keep her safe.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Then all this other stuff happens.
Krispin: I mean, that scene is interesting. I don't know if I'm jumping ahead, but like when she cuts the wasp nest…
DL: Right. Yeah. She's trying to kill them all. Including Peeta.
Krispin: Which is so interesting because we always, I mean, not always, but often, in these kinds of movies, we don't want to see our heroes killing the villains, right? We want to see the hyenas kill Scar, not Simba kill Scar. Right?
DL: Well, what a great metaphor Krispin. No, but Katniss, again, is a survivor. They've got her up a tree, she's going to die of starvation. So she cuts down this wasp nest of these things called tracker jackers, which have this hallucinogenic venom, all this stuff.
Krispin: She does kill one of – that that kills one of them.
DL: Yeah. But then it just kind of scatters everyone. And then I forget how Katniss eventually does get a bow. Peeta gets hurt, gets separated, he's like dying in a stream and using camouflage to hide out I out.
Krispin: I love that part. I know you think it's so cringe.
DL: Yeah. We'll talk about that in a minute. Then all of a sudden the Gamemakers are like, well, maybe it's time to play up this whole love-struck people thing. And so they make this announcement in the arena, if there's two people from the same district left, they can both win.
So then Katniss is like, I gotta find Peeta. So immediately she's like, I gotta find Peeta. She somehow figures out that he's good because he tells her to run and all this stuff. Mm-hmm. She ends up finding him in the stream, he's dying. She's like, oh shit. Like, all this stuff. But the more she kind of pretends to be in love with him, the more gifts they start getting sent.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So she's really playing this up and she doesn't want him to die. That is also in her nature.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: She is a protector. You know, he's from her district. So then there's this huge extended part in the books about the love interest. Because Peeta is quite in love with her, but all this stuff happens.
Krispin: And I feel like at that point it comes on that part of her comes online where she's like, I have to take care of other people.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: So I have to take care of Peeta now because his survival is not a direct threat to me taking care of my family, therefore I'm responsible for him now is kind of what she does, right?
DL: Yeah, exactly. So then the games keep going on. People keep dying off, um, until it gets to the very end. It's very like, kind of sad and blah, blah, blah. But really what's important is at the end, Katniss and Peeta are left alive. And then the Gamemaker comes on— and by the way, the Gamemaker, President, Snow of the Capitol is getting really mad at him.
Like, hey, you're making this girl look too good, and too powerful, and too strong, and she's rebellious. She did that funeral with Rue, she— you know?
Krispin: She comes from District 12. Even that alone—
DL: We’ve got to do something. And so then at the very end, they're like, just kidding. There can only be one victor. So Peeta's looking at her like, you just gotta kill me, man. You just gotta, because you have to be the winner. Your family needs you, like my family does. But instead, Katniss is like, there's no way. They had got these berries called Night Lock that ended up killing one of the other tributes.
So they're poisonous berries. And so Katniss is like, you gotta just trust me. Let's both take these berries and end these games on our terms. And Peeta's like. What? Like he doesn't want to, because he wants her to live, but she's like, just trust me.
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: So both take the berries, they're looking at the cameras. And then they're both, so they're doing a suicide pact.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: To be like F you to the Capitol. And then right before they take the berries, of course they're like, no, no, no. Just kidding. You both win. Congratulations. You’re the winners of the Hunger Games. And it's all over.
Krispin: Right.
DL: Yeah. And that's kind of how the movie ends
Krispin: Sort of.
DL: Sort of.
Krispin: But I think that is so important. Because like I said, Katniss in a lot of ways can be— in her like survival instinct sometimes she really misreads things. But this is one of those moments where she calculates it and she's like, yeah, there's no way that they're going to let us both die. Because that ruins the whole victor narrative.
DL: Yeah. And Peeta was totally not tracking with any of this. So, yeah, Katniss is the one. Now I just read this book called Pranksters Versus Autocrats By Srdja Popovic.
Okay. And he was a part of taking down a dictator in Serbia in the early two thousands. And he talks about these inciting incidents, these dilemma moments where you force the authoritarian power into a dilemma where they have no good options. And that's literally what Katniss does here. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes. Yeah. Right.
DL: So she's forcing them into this decision that they really don't want to do. They don't want to reward rebellious people who stand up to the Capitol. But they end up having to do that. Now Katniss's perspective is just to survive, to keep both her and Peeta alive.
She can go back. It ends up spiraling out of control because she ends up inspiring the districts to do their own rebellious actions. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh.
DL: And the Capitol knows this is going to happen. So then the focus becomes Peeta and Katniss in the next movie and the next book have to pretend like they just did it because they were love-struck. It wasn't actually a big F you to the Capitol, it wasn't a dilemma action. You know what I mean?
Krispin: Uh huh. Uh huh
DL: It wasn't a resistance thing, it's just because they're be besotted teenagers.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: And that’s what movie two is about.
Krispin: Yeah. And we actually see that in this movie in the end scene. She does an interview with Caesar about like, yeah, we were so in love. And, yeah, it brings, you know. You were talking about, it puts the Capitol in this place of, what's the decision we make?
But then she's left with this really difficult decision of, do I play up the love story or not? And she chooses to, to protect her family, right?
DL: Yeah. So I think that's kind of what the first movie is all about. Eventually it gets to this point of this dilemma action that ends up spiraling out of there, and that's what the rest of the books and the movies are about.
So we'll get to that in number two. Wow. We've talked a lot, Krispin. We’ve gotta do some rapid fire things here. What’s your favorite scene in this movie?
Krispin: When the Gamemaster has to eat the berries.
DL: What??
Krispin: I can't explain it. I can't explain it, but it's my favorite.
DL: Seneca Crane? At the end?
Krispin: Because it's a reminder that when you are complicit with the authoritarian system, they will not save you.
DL: No. Compliance will not save you. Okay. That scene is harrowing. That's at the very end. Wow wow wow wow.
Krispin: I just went to my gut. I don't know what that says about me.
DL: I think my, I don’t know if it's my favorite scene, but the most impactful one is when they are showing Rue's death and then what's happening in District 11. I think just because the books couldn't do that. Katniss doesn't really learn about that till book two. So I thought that was like a really powerful way to use a movie to show that. I really like that.
Krispin: Yeah. I obviously love that one too. It made me tear up earlier.
DL: Yeah. Okay. Least favorite scene. You know what mine is.
Krispin: I think we might have the same one.
DL: What?
Krispin: The CGI dogs?
DL: No!
Krispin: Oh, mine is the CGI dogs.
DL: That was terrible CGI.
Krispin: Yes.
The mutts at the end. My least favorite one— Peeta's special power is camouflage, painting camouflage. And there's this one point where he is in the mud and he basically looks like an Ent from Lord of the Rings.
Krispin: Yes! That's what I love about it.
DL: How did he do that?
that?
Krispin: It feels like all of a sudden you're in a movie from the eighties that Jim Henson had a role in.
DL: Exactly. I was like, Peeta, oh my God. And I love Peeta as a character. That part, oh God, I thought it was the stupidest part of the movie. Okay. Krispin, who's the most attractive person in this movie?
Krispin: Okay. First Cinna.
DL: Yes!
Krispin: Right?
DL: Lenny Kravitz himself. Yes.
Krispin: The gold eyeliner. I mean, first of all, half of the people are teenagers, so we're not going to talk about them being attractive.
DL: I know. But you're the one with this question, right?
Krispin: Yes. Cinna first.
DL: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: There's this magnetism about President Snow.
DL: Stop it.
Krispin: It's true.
DL: Stop it.
Krispin: And when we think about our authoritarian leader that we have here…
DL: Snow is way hotter than Trump, I will say that.
Krispin: He's more suave, he’s like—
DL: You love the blood leaking out of his lips all the time?
Krispin: Yes.
DL: Evidently he was gunning for this role. He loved the books and really wanted to be in the movies, Donald Sutherland, which is so funny to me. Dude. Cinna’s eyeliner is the most attractive thing in this movie, I would say.
Krispin: Yeah. It's so great.
DL: Probably. And in the books, Katniss is like, that gold eyeliner is very attractive. Which she has no sex drive, let me tell you. She's in survival mode. She thinks Peeta is trying to kill her the whole time when he's just in love with her. And with Gale, she keeps feeling like, why is he trying to force this on us?
We have no romance between us whatsoever. You know, she loves the eyeliner, so, hey, you're like Katniss in that. I don't know, we have a few more questions. What did you, anything you want to say real quick?
Krispin: Out of these questions? Yeah. I mean that's one of the things we talked about this love triangle element, which is going to keep going. So maybe we should have that be a regular segment.
DL: Love triangle corner!
Krispin: Love triangle corner. I’m such a romantic that it wasn't until this time of watching that I was like, oh yeah, Katniss is aromantic, asexual, functionally at this point, right?
DL: Yes, absolutely.
Krispin: She's just like trying to figure out these men, these young men, you know, these teenage boys. She's not even feeling particularly torn. She's not thinking about it at all. And me as like such a romantic person, I’m like, how could you not? But you're like, I totally get it!
DL: Well Peeta is very romantic in the books and in, you know, his own inner world. And Gale is very possessive. But also Gale understands Katniss. According to Katniss, Gale is the person she can let her face relax around.
Krispin: Huh.
DL: So that's interesting. But in the first book, he's sort of like making it a little bit more romantic and she's like, what? What? No.
Krispin: You relate, don’t you?
DL: He could be my brother, you know? Like, I do feel very comfortable around him, you know, but he could be my brother. And with Peeta there's one point early in the book when she realizes, oh, he's doing some of these things because he's kind.
And she was like, kind people have a way of working themselves into my heart and I can't afford that, so I'm done with him, and I'm closing myself off. So I thought that was interesting.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Katniss is very intrigued by kind people. Her sister Prim is very kind and that's why it brings up Katniss's protectiveness. But she also feels like, I don't have the luxury, I can't protect anybody else, especially another tribute. So she's like, no, to Peeta, but eventually, you know, it's his kindness that sort of wins her over. But yeah. In this book, she is a part of the love triangle, but she is not a part of the love tringle. Does that make sense?
Yes. Yes.
And she doesn't really know how she feels about anybody, except Prim. So that's in this movie.
Krispin: We have a listener question?
DL: We do have a few listener questions. Now, I'm not an expert on the Hunger Games like some people are. If there are fun facts we're missing, if there's something you want to say about this first movie or the second, or you know, even the last two, please, you can email us your questions.
You can leave it in the Discord. You can send us a voice memo and we might play it. But one of the questions we got was from someone in our Discord who said, why is there no religion in the Hunger Games? Which I thought was a really interesting question. I have some thoughts, but do you have any?
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's where there's some power and culture flip-flopping that's sort of confusing to me in a way. So, you know, you would expect the District 12 from Appalachia to be religious.
DL: Yes.
Krispin: You would. But they're not.
DL: There’s very, very, very, very, very little of that.
Krispin: Right. I feel like in part because this movie is not about ideology, it is about class consciousness.
DL: You think it's about—? Well, and about the how violence against children works as a tool of terror to control.
Krispin: Right. But it's not necessarily, it's not even necessarily about race. It's not about human rights of, like, queer people, which I think then interacts with like religiosity. It's not about cultural values. It's not about the culture wars. It's really about class war.
DL: Well, that's an interesting way of putting it, because I think, and this is sort of the common consensus that Suzanne Collins took religion out of this so that it wouldn't deter people from getting the message about totalitarianism, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: If she attacked religion, that would just cause controversy. That's what people would focus on. And, actually, some of these beliefs behind specific like nonviolent actions against authoritarianism is they do say like, you have to sort of think through how can you get your message to the widest amount of people without there being things that they get snagged on, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: Like if religious beliefs are deeply embedded in America, you maybe can't go after those religious beliefs if you're trying to talk about authoritarian control.
Krispin: It's funny you just said that and I was like, we are doing a horrible job.
DL: Well exactly! Hey, there's room for all of us in the movement, but we're doing the opposite and that's why we're niche. That's why we do it for the survivors.
Krispin: That's why we're not Suzanne Collins.
DL: This must be why we're not successful, Krispin. But Suzanne Collins, I think did something so fascinating, to take religion out of it so the Christians couldn't go get up in arms about it. However, the reality is if we're talking about America, you know, religion would absolutely be a part of the authoritarian control.
But this is not the real world. This is a made up world to kind of allow people to play around with this idea of, what does it mean to socialize your kids into a violent, unequal, oppressive system? And what does it take to get people to start to fight back? Do those seem like relevant questions today?
Krispin: Right. Uh huh.
DL: They do. Now we talk about religion being important to violence against children, but I think it's totally fine that Suzanne Collins didn't for the scope of this book.
Krispin: Well, let's finish this up with, we gotta make some room for any existential crises we had.
DL: Always. Always.
Krispin: So for me, it was the very end when Katniss has to make this decision between: I could be a hero and a motivator for this resistance movement.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Or I could protect my family. And that feels like, oof. Like, it just like hurts my brain because part of me is like, yeah, the right thing to do is to incite the movement. The resistance against this oppressive system.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Then also part of me is like, yeah, also that's your family.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And not in a, like, you have to protect your family above all, but like there's something very difficult about that idea of, by this action I am killing my family.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: You know? I mean that's not exactly it, right? We could get into all the ethics of it, but that's kind of the, the ethical decision she's faced with and I would hate to be faced with that decision in such stark terms.
DL: Yeah. Yeah. I think Katniss in the books and in the movies right, is sort of held up as this idealized survivor. And that's why I think Peeta is actually the character that most people relate to and Peeta's approach of, I just don't want them to take away who I am is so profound. Especially for those of us who—
So, my existential crisis, when I first read the books, when I first watched the movie, of course, has to do with, if I'm trying to think of who I am in this scenario, I'm a Capitol citizen. That's how it appears to me. I feel a little less like that now. I feel like there's a little more wiggle room, especially being a parent and like we have to send our kids to school where they have to do school shooter drills, right? Violence is just baked into the American society, right?
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So I feel a little less like a Capitol citizen. But that is still something I really struggle with, is how much luxury do I enjoy at the hands of immense suffering? However, being non-binary, being autistic, I have my own intersectionality, so just trying to view it through a bigger picture.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But that's where a lot of my sort of existential crises come from. And I just have found a lot of like, I don't know, just thinking about Peeta, like I just don't want to be a piece in their game. That is a thought. I'm like, huh, that's like a really great thought you can have no matter who's in charge.
Krispin: Right.
DL: No matter what atrocities are happening, is like but they'll never be able to take away myself from me. And that I think has been very grounding for me.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: So maybe that's how we should end it. How does this help you sort of be grounded in 2025 in the United States? I think I like Peeta's approach. I want to try and be me as all of this is happening. You know?
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And think of these dilemma actions you can do. I think about this art show I just did sort of making fun of Christian hegemony, right? People online were upset about it. They didn't come to the show, like, I just think that's so interesting in a way, just sort of inciting this response, either if you're a Christian, you can be really offended that somebody dares to speak up about evangelicalism being harmful to kids, you know? But that kind of makes you look like a little piece of shit.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right.
DL: So, I don't dunno, I've been thinking about the dilemma action thing.
Krispin: Yeah. No, I think that's so great. And, yeah, it's funny because we are talking about this, but I'm also watching the Andor series
DL: I knew you were going to bring up Andor!
Krispin: With one of our kids, which also brings up this element of, how do you make the Empire more oppressive? Or, how do you trigger them into being more oppressive so that it's harder for them to maintain control? You know, unfortunately it's all very relevant. But this is really fun! I'm so glad that we were able to talk about one of our favorite movies.
We're going to keep talking about it. Going to keep nerding out. Again, like DL said, please send in any comments, questions. I was going to say anyy fact-checking is great. I like how we're including Peeta's Games in the cannon. Oh, Peeta's games is cannon. It's cannon.
Krispin: Thanks y'all so much for listening
DL: And get ready for movie number two. Book number two. We'll be discussing that next. So yeah, send your questions. Thanks for taking this side quest. Don't forget, President Snow in the place of James Dobson, Colorado Springs of Colorado, and of violence against children, you know? It's all connected. Do you see the red strings? Krispin?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: You get it?
Krispin: Yep. It makes sense. Well, hat's how we connected it. So we're allowed to talk about Hunger Games on the podcast because of Colorado Springs, Colorado.
DL: Right.
Krispin: Alright, until next time, thanks so much for listening
DL: And remember the odds are never in your favor.
Krispin: You've been doing a lot of, we've been…do I want to put it online? I've been seeing a lot of great graffiti and street art and stuff, and I feel like someone needs to do that.
Put that out there. If you see this?
DL: The odds are never in our favor.
Krispin: The odds are never in our favor. I would love to see that on a side of a building.
DL: I went to a protest and you know what was on my sign?
Krispin: Oh, I forgot!
DL: “Katniss. Remember who the real enemy is.”
Krispin: Yes!
DL: I'm millennial cringe and I love it.
Krispin: So great. All right. We really have to, we were trying to sign off and then we got on another little side quest. Thanks y'all for listening, and we'll be back soon.
DL: Bye.
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