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Mocking Jay Part 2
Mocking Jay Part 2
Krispin: Welcome to the Strong-Willed Podcast, where we are recovering from religious authoritarian parenting. Are we, and talking about lots of other themes around authoritarianism.
DL: Are we recovering?
Krispin: It's that thing where you're like, I got out of the house. Mm-hmm. And you walk out mm-hmm. And you're like, actually this evil is everywhere.
DL: Oh. You know? Yeah. Well,
Krispin: maybe evil is a strong word, but we'll run with it. I don't think so.
DL: Hey, this is the last episode we're doing on the Hunger Games. Thanks to everyone who's been listening along. We know there's been a little break in between episodes because
Krispin: a little, a little break.
DL: It's summer. Yes.
What are we supposed to do? I'm taking care of a few extra kids this summer, and a shout out to people who have four kids. Let me just say that. Um
Krispin: mm-hmm. All, all the, all the ex evangelicals Yes. That have four kids. Right. Really early.
DL: Um, hats off to you. 'cause I, I'm in the thick of it. It's just, life is difficult.
The government is causing me to want to scream and shave my hair, so I, I did the ladder.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Um, and you've also done
Krispin: the form, right?
DL: That's true. I've done both. Um, you know, can I be honest and say I have been putting off doing this podcast episode? Mm-hmm. Do you know why? I know why.
Krispin: You know why? I think so.
Is it the, did I tell you why is it the thing that we talked about that when I thought about it later, I was like, should we really say this on a podcast? Oh, is it that thing? It's that thing. Yeah. Go ahead, tell him. Okay.
DL: I just, 'cause all of our episodes with the Hunger Games have seemed very, you know, in line with the news and world events.
Mm-hmm. So I kept hoping like, oh, we can't get to it this week. Well, maybe by next week the thing will have happened. The thing that people who are on the internet a lot and leftist left-leaning, talk about a lot. The thing, the thing, the thing that actually happens in mocking J part two twice. Mm-hmm. Um, so, right.
I'll just leave it at that. I'm not gonna say no more. Okay. You know? Yes. Right. So, but that thing hasn't happened yet.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. But we were like, I guess we should get around to finishing this.
DL: Yeah. So we are going to do it now. Crispin. Mm-hmm. There are people listening who have never read the books and have never watched the movies, and they enjoy listening to us in our weird little way.
Recap this. Like kind of important piece of American literature from the past few decades.
Krispin: I gotta tell you, that is too much pressure for me. Oh,
DL: I thought it was incredibly validating. It's all the little sensitive souls that are listening. Hey, hey, if you're listening right now and you're a sensitive soul mm-hmm.
We love you. Mm-hmm. And that's why we do this work. 'cause you don't have to watch, you especially don't have to watch this movie. Can I put my cards out on the table? Yes. Say this movie, you know, the first two movies in particular were like, they, they're way better than they have any Right to be. Not this one.
Right. Not this one.
Krispin: In what sense? I
DL: I don't like it. I don't think it's a good movie. Oh, Uhhuh. Yeah. I, I don't think the book's that great either, so. Okay. But the movie's worse in my opinion. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: I think there's lots of interesting things in this, but you are correct in this, but just doesn't
DL: to us talk about it, right?
Yes.
Krispin: It's very, it's, it's pretty disjointed. It's just a, I mean, not to give too much away, but like most of it is an epilogue. In a sense, no,
DL: I wish Epilogue was the entire movie is what I think. But so I'm saying this is the perfect, this is where we're gonna shine because you do not need to watch this movie is what I think.
And you might think differently, Crispin.
Krispin: Yeah. And
DL: that's okay.
Krispin: Right? I mean there's, we, we'll get into it, but yeah, it does feel the, a lot of it feels like, I didn't really need to watch this. I didn't really need you to like put this on, on the screen. So Yeah. I felt the way reading the book too, just in terms of the action, the action sequences Right.
Are just like, it feels so much like you are, you know, this is a Hunger Games movie, so there needs to be these Hunger Games actions sequences is violence.
DL: Right. Which I hated. Okay. So we're gonna kind of go rapid fire through like talking through the movie. What happens in the movie. I'll interject.
Mm-hmm. My thoughts from the books. Um, if it seems like we're rushing it, it's because. It's July and we can't have the air conditioner running while we're recording. So I'm gonna be slowly devolving into a puddle of sweat, just so you know. Um, while we're doing this,
Krispin: it's fine, because as we go on and we talk about things, it's not like it's gonna get just more and more intense as we go forward.
No, it's not at all. Right. So, yeah. Um, uh, what, like, how would you describe kind of where this movie opens
DL: or like what the theme is of the movie?
Krispin: Yeah, yeah. Just don't, we usually do
DL: that, we talk about the overarching theme. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Okay. So I think for me it's really important the way the book ends, and then to some extent the way the movie ends.
It's bringing back the original theme of the first Hunger Games, which is Violence Against Children has generational societal impacts, right? Mm-hmm. And who ends up bearing the brunt? Of adults being horrendous. It's the children, it's marginalized people. It's all that The first Hunger Games book, right.
Is like, it does bring up this theme of how do you, like, at what point do you tell your kids about the Hunger Games? Mm-hmm. When they're four, when they're five, when they're three, you know? Right. Just this horrifying existential question. This movie is sort of like, here's how this ends up spinning out. Mm.
And actually engulfing an entire country slash continent in just horrific violence. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes. Uhhuh. Yeah.
DL: So it's about violence against children, which is what our, uh, writing project is all about.
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's it. I mean, I feel like I, I didn't think in terms of themes so much as like a general feeling.
Okay. And my general feeling was the. Yeah. Was this discomfort. And I think that that's part of the movie, which is like when you move from, uh, from power to the people, citizens resisting, et cetera, into military power, against military power, and just how quickly things shift and how, how violent it becomes quickly.
Um, and so just a lot of like discomfort watching the movie of like, who, who do I root for? Oh my God. In this system where everybody's using violence against other people that have less power.
DL: Oh my God, if this isn't a great, actually this is why this is a really interesting movie to talk about right now.
'cause looking at the Democrats and Republicans mm-hmm. And what they are actually united on, you know mm-hmm. Is sort of terrifying. So that's kind of what Mocking J part two is talking about. Right. And I wanna get into that a little bit more. When we get to the end, so
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. But yeah, that's my, it's funny you're asking like, what's the theme?
And I'm like, yeah, just my head was spinning the whole time about all these really big ethical issues, you know? Well, great.
DL: I love that. We'll get to talk about that more,
Krispin: right. So, but yeah, how would you describe kind of where it starts?
DL: Yeah. So the Mikey J part one ended with PETA is Back, but he's been hijacked, you know, and it's so devastating.
So that's where Mike EJ part two kind of opens, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's this PETA's back, but is totally not the person that Kaus needed. And Katten is sort of just realized how much she needed him, right? Mm-hmm. And so here's Katniss once again in this really isolated position. And what's really interesting about the beginning of this movie is that Katniss is like, responds horribly to peta.
Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know if you kind of picked up on that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. But
DL: like. She like, she
Krispin: feels very betrayed.
DL: Well, she feels betrayed and she just, like, when she tries to talk to him and they're trying to do these controlled ways of like helping him through all this stuff, um, he'll say something and he's not like, sweet, generous, loving, unconditional, loving peta.
He says something like, wow, you're not very nice, are you? And she's like, well, you're horrible yourself. You know, she just like, she acts like a toddler, uhhuh to him. Uhhuh, which is interesting. Mm-hmm. In the rest of this movie, she's pretty shut down, very stoic, very traumatized. Mm-hmm. Know. 17, 18-year-old.
Krispin: It's almost like when it's close relationships with people, your attachment system gets activated
DL: Well, how to do date
Krispin: and these, you know, visceral emotions and reactions come out.
DL: Yeah. So I just think that's really interesting. This is in the book, in the movie, she, she responds so poorly in just like such a triggered way to peta.
Mm-hmm. Even hamit who like. Has a, a surprising amount of grace for Kat is like, what the hell are you doing? Mm-hmm. Like, he has been torture, like mm-hmm. You don't understand. She's like, I don't care. Like he's being mean to me. Mm-hmm. Like, which is so interesting and is a point. Like it pick, it's, to me it points out like she's just a 17-year-old girl, right?
Mm-hmm. Like who's had horrible things happen to
Krispin: her, so, right. And I think it also speaks to, she has like two different modes. One mode being like, I am dead to you, and dead to these feeling. Oh yeah. Like, shut down, like you're saying.
DL: She's like, he'll never get better. It's over. Mm-hmm. There's no hope for him.
Mm-hmm. Right. He's trying to kill me, so I'm gonna have to try and kill him.
Krispin: Right. I mean, her whole strategy throughout life and you know, if you listen to the previous episodes, we've talked about her mom and her mom not being a safe person. So she, oh, and that will
DL: come back,
Krispin: right. In this movie. Right.
And so there's this whole piece of like, she does not open herself up to anyone, but she's opened herself up to peta. And so this idea of him being mean to her, even in, like you said, like it's not even really horrific things is so triggering. Yes. Because it's like the one time that I decided to trust someone.
Right.
DL: Yeah. And he just, he no longer views her. As like, good. Mm-hmm. And that turns out to be devastating to her. Yeah. Which I can see. Mm-hmm. Um, so anyways, that's so devastating. Um, but we're back, we're in district 13, right? Mm-hmm. This military space, they're trying to get Kane to be the mocking Jay, but now they realize like, well, shit, this bringing peanut back didn't actually help Katniss.
It kind of made her like less able to perform. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, he keeps trying to kill her, so she's like, you know, send me out. Right? Mm-hmm. Into, into battle. But they're like, well, actually you're super bad at following orders, so we're gonna just. They, they're kind of like, you're gonna be a part of the battle, but it actually just turns into this pros team.
Mm-hmm. Team, right?
Krispin: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And should we mention like the, um, the district two bombing that happens? Because I think that's sort of important. Okay. Yeah. Which is like up until this point there's been so much focus on just like resistance against the capitol. Yeah. You know, getting. Cat this out, getting PETA out.
But now District 13 actually bombs another district, um, where a lot of the military equipment is and traps everybody inside this like bunker. Yes. And it brings up these questions, and Gail is there, and we've talked about Gail, right? Going into this military mindset and there's this, this question of like, what, how should we treat, um, people that are fighting for the capitol?
And Kaus is like, these are just other people. Yeah. Right? And gala is like, no, they are, they are inhumane or like they're inhuman. Right. He starts to use some of that like dehumanizing language, not starts to like, he's very direct about
DL: it. Yeah. So district two is the one that's like closest to the capitol, right?
Mm-hmm. And that's where all the peacekeepers are trained. Um, so I if, if we're like looking at what would be the equivalent in 2025 today mm-hmm. I'm like. This would be, you know, cop city in Georgia, right. Where they're gonna train ice agents mm-hmm. Or something like that. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah.
This is where all the ice agents are trained. That's where they live. That's where all this is happening. And yeah. Gail's like, I wanna kill all of them.
Krispin: Right. And Gail, along with Heavens be, I believe, I just love saying his name. You do. Heavens be, um, they are working on this plan, which I think this is worth noting for later.
They're working on a plan where there's an explosion.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And it hurts a lot of people. So then medics and a lot of, um, rescuers run in, and then there's this, and I think we
DL: talked about that the last episode. Oh, we
Krispin: did? Okay. Because it's
DL: in the first Mocking Jam movie. They mentioned this idea. Right.
Gale and bt. Mm-hmm. That's how it is in the, in the movie. But yeah, so and so then that comes into play in district two. Right. Because they're talking about do we trap everybody and kill them all inside this mountain, or do we let. Like, leave one pathway open where people can leave and they can surrender.
Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, this is where we see Gail and Kane's worldviews being really different. Mm-hmm. And I think it's a really interesting question for us right now, living in the United States, right? There's people who are Maga Trumpers, there are enablers of Maga Trumpers. There's, there's all these people.
And, and Canice is like, if they just knew the truth, if we could just talk to them, like if I could just mm-hmm. They'll surrender and they'll be with us against coin. And I think. That's not actually that realistic. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And she tries to do that. She gets shot.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Um, but she survives.
Krispin: Right? Yeah. Yeah. No, I think it, it definitely brings up these like important questions before they go on the mission. Okay. Annie and Finnick get married. Yes. And I loved that scene.
DL: Don't you love like a dystopian wartime marriage? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where everybody gets to be happy for one goddamn second Uhhuh, you know?
Yes,
Krispin: yes. I love that. But it also felt, even though this is a straight marriage,
DL: yeah.
Krispin: It felt queer in a way.
DL: Interesting. Let me explain. What do you mean? They
Krispin: have been, both of them were, I believe, sex slaves. Well, at least Finn was. Yeah. But they were both trapped in this oppressive system. Yeah. In the Capitol.
Mm-hmm. And them escaping this oppressive system meant that they could actually follow their hearts and be together.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: You know? Yeah. So, yeah.
DL: Yeah. And it's interesting 'cause they're a little bit of a picture of what ends up happening at the end. This is probably not a spoiler, but mm-hmm. Penis. Penis.
Penis. Penis. Penis. Tell me
Krispin: about the penis at the end.
DL: Well, the
Krispin: two kids that it's just shush,
DL: kaus and peanut do get together in the end, which actually is sort of a contentious point for some people and we'll talk about that. But I think Finnick and Annie are very good picture of like, especially Annie, right?
It is just sort of, her mental health is not well, exactly. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's also just like a pretty normal response to what she's experienced and Finnick has just this unconditional love for her. Mm-hmm. There's some really kind of heartbreaking things in the book that happened, like. PETA actually ends up making the wedding cake for them.
Mm. But it's just hard for Katniss. Right. 'cause PETA's still not safe to be around her. Mm-hmm. But then there's like these small signs of he's coming back to himself by making the cake and mm-hmm. You know, so there's, there's all that there. But yeah, I do love a little scene like that. Like, you know, this is what we're fighting for.
Mm-hmm. Similar to what Kat has discovered with Prim. Right. Prim being like, wow, I wanna be a doctor and I can be a doctor here. And just, you know, it's like mm-hmm. Oh, this is why we're doing this is so people can keep being people. Right. You know? Yeah.
Krispin: Just live life. And just live life. Even though lives and connected lives,
DL: they have to have this whole wedding underground in a bunker.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Right. So then Kaus goes to district two, gets shot, recovers, come back, has another interaction with peta, goes back out and then. Who joins the propo team? Chris Spin,
Krispin: PETA
DL: Pet. The very person who wants to kill Katniss. Mm-hmm. Now Katniss is on this propo team with Bogs, uh, I love Bogs. Yes. Played by Mahershala Ali in the movie.
Mm-hmm. Who I think he does a great job. Sorry if you heard our dog scratching yourself in the background. So, yeah. So Bogs is there, there's like these camera people. Finnick. Is there, Gail's there, and then. PETA shows up now. This is kind of a really important deal. I think when I first read the book, I was like, yay, PETA, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Now
DL: I, and I think the movie does a great job.
Krispin: Right?
DL: What, tell me your thoughts on this. Yeah,
Krispin: so what's really important is Coin Sends Peta
DL: Coin sends Peter without Telling Boggs. Without Telling Kane. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Right, right. And so, and just, just to be clear, I don't know if we mentioned this, but Coin is the, the president of 13.
Yes. So just, just to clarify, and
DL: she, and again, she's played by Juliana Moore. Moore. Mm-hmm. Julian Moore and like the super severe haircut. But like, you know, she's a woman, she's calm, like mm-hmm. Um, up until this point, there's not like, you don't like her, but there's no reason to like. Hate her.
Krispin: Right. It, to me it feels like, oh, I'm glad someone is taking this so seriously.
Yes.
DL: She takes it very seriously. Mm-hmm. Almost like, you know, autistic in a way. Mm-hmm. But here is where we are like, wait a minute. 'cause, just 'cause of the way Boggs reacts. Uh, so basically Kanes is like talking to Boggs, the commander and being like, why would Coin do this? Mm-hmm. Like, he's going to kill me.
He's going to kill me. And he's like, well, when all of this is over and snow's dead, like, who do you think is gonna be the next president? Mm-hmm. And she was like, oh, I guess coin. He's like, and do you support Coin? And Kaus is silent. He's like, just the fact that you're not like 100%. Yes. I throw all my mocking j media support towards coin.
He's like, you're a threat to her. Right. So she's fine with taking you out because you being a martyr would actually be good for the cause,
Krispin: right? Yeah. The O he says like, the only function you have left for her is to die
DL: because Canis is like. Yeah, she, I think that's what's so interesting. She is a threat to authoritarian rule, no matter how it appears, right?
Mm-hmm. And she doesn't even see herself like that. In fact, she's like, why can't I be in the real army? And it's like, because you do whatever the hell you want when things hit the fan. Like right. You're not a good soldier, Uhhuh. You know? And that's kind of an interesting point. So they're trying to make her a good little propaganda machine.
Mm-hmm. And she's not great at that either. Mm-hmm. But they're doing the best what they can. So coin basically reaches this point, like,
Krispin: well, and I wanna make just a little side note there about what you said, which is like, why we love. People that are like, for example, like PDA presentation of autism. Yes.
Where it's just like, yeah, I
DL: Persistent demand for autonomy. Yeah.
Krispin: Right. Yes. So like this. Yeah. Just this. Like, I'm not going to fall in line. Yeah. I'm not gonna do something just because you say Yeah. That it's the thing to do. Like, I will do it if it aligns with my values, but if it doesn't, like I'm gonna question that.
And we need people like Katniss because of what you said. Right. It's so, it's so easy for authoritarian to take a lot of different forms. So anyway, just wanna give a shout out to, to the folks that are, you know, approach the world that way. It's not always easy to be in the world when, when you don't fall in line, but we need you.
DL: Yeah, totally. We do need you. And Kanu is like a teenage PDA autistic person, which is really interesting. Just like you're a threat to everybody at that point. Mm-hmm. Um, we know this. I mean, I feel like Bren and Lee Mulligan, who I love from Dropout, recently said something like, every young person he knows is like a queer depressed socialist.
And I'm like, yeah, that is like a threat to the Democrats and the Republicans Uhhuh like so they are totally being silenced and you know what I mean? Like yes, I think that's interesting. But this is probably where we also see this divide where coin. Plu, tar Heavens B, all these people, they're playing a much bigger game than the one Katniss is playing.
Katniss is like, I need to kill snow. I need to kill snow. I need to kill. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I need to survive, make this problem. I need to kill snow. And these other people are just playing a much longer, bigger game, but it's still a game, and she's still a piece in their games. Pet's still a piece in their games.
It's, it's pretty sad stuff.
Krispin: Right. One thing that I love about this movie, about PETA is he's continuing to recover from being Yeah. Brainwashed and hijacked. So, um, he'll check in with Katniss about like, here's this thing I'm thinking, is it real or not real? Well, he
DL: starts to do that with the whole company.
Right. They're like, we can help you.
Krispin: Yes. Right. You know? That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, obviously it's particularly sweet when he and Kane Yes. Build that rapport. Yeah. Uh, but I just, I think it's really sweet and I think I remember watching that the first time as a therapist Yeah. And being like, yeah, this is like, such like A-A-C-P-T-S-D recovery sort of thing, right.
Of like, yeah, this is what my brain is telling me. Totally. Right. Can I check in with the people, trusted people around me? You know, of course there's that element of like, checking in with yourself, but especially if it's something that is negative, that is, um, harsh about yourself, right? Yeah. Then it's just like, yeah, hey, here's what's going on.
Is that true or not true?
DL: I love it. It's like, I think a lot about my friend group right now, which we all basically have C-P-T-S-D. Mm-hmm. And just knowing that about ourselves, we can do some of that check-in work, like mm-hmm. Hey, like, we hung out and then like, I just was really worried. I, I did something wrong and now you're mad at me.
Like, I just wanna tell you. And then like. One of us will be like, no, you're great. You're fine. Totally. That's probably just A-C-P-T-S date, you know, like mm-hmm. You don't have to worry about and just real or not real. We kind of do that for each other all the time. Now, you and I totally do that in our relationship.
So yeah, I'm like, that is really, um, it makes a lot of sense to me. It's just still really sad though to see how impacted PETA is, and it's sort of like torture for cat, you know? Mm. Yeah. So again, like Snow is still getting to her. By p being like this. Mm-hmm. Um, and then stuff starts to happen. It turns into the Hunger Games in, in the Capitol, basically because the Capitol has set up all these booby traps, all these pods that keep getting triggered,
Krispin: which to me feels a little bit like a plot hole.
Ugh. Right. Like an unnecessary thing, because it's like, yeah, it's, I hate it. They could have just like set up landmines throughout the capitol or like right outside the Capitol, but instead it's like, it's all our games. Part three, it's all like gamified. And it's like, when did they, I think
DL: literally says that.
Krispin: Yeah. You know, and it's like, when did they have time to set up all these games? You know? It doesn't
DL: make it, it's like, well, because they had game makers. It's like, none of this makes any sense.
Krispin: It really felt like they were just like, yeah, we have to like, keep the franchise going in a way, you know? So,
DL: yeah.
I mean, people are like, how much of this is Suzanne College? How much of is it the publishers being like, this is what the people want. Mm-hmm. And who knows? But I, yeah. I found this part in the book, excruciating. I find it excruciating in the movie. It's just horrible. Things keep happening to this little group.
They start dying one by one. Mm-hmm. Bogs dies. Um, and then Katniss kind of takes over as like, we're actually on a mission to kill snow. I don't actually wanna talk about any of like the war game stuff and, and all of that. Just to say that for me, we don't get very much of it. But the district two thing is very interesting, right?
People who are actively fighting for the capitol, even as the capitol is hurting them. Mm-hmm. Like, that seems very relevant now. Now we're in the capital, right? Capital citizens who are soft af right? Mm-hmm. Are not used to any of this. Mm-hmm. People like
Krispin: you and me,
DL: their systems crumbling. You know, the propaganda machine is still like, we're doing great.
We're not gonna, you know? Mm-hmm. But they're, they're starting to feel war. The hardships, like there's. Curfew, there's all this stuff kind of heats up. Mm-hmm. One of the things I thought was so interesting in the book, in the movie is they're hiding out in some capital apartments, right? Mm-hmm. This little team, and they're eating the food that has been like stockpiled in some of these houses.
And the people from district 13 are scandalized. They're like you, if you hide food, right? That's like, you'll get tortured. You'll get like, you can't do this. Right? And Gale's like, well, I'm glad they did 'cause now we gotta eat it. Right? Uhhuh, like, there's something to this, the capital survival tactics that are now helping them.
Right? Gale's eating the food. He's like, man, if I ate food like this every day, I'd probably believe the capital's lies. Mm. Which I found interesting. Mm-hmm. And just to keep that in mind, like if I had a life like this, I would probably believe the capital's lies just. Being able to say that. Mm-hmm.
Because Kane has had some of those thoughts too. Like if I was born and raised in the capitol right. I would be silly. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah. And just not fully able to engage in the horrors of what's happening. Mm-hmm. A a few capital people help them. Mainly Tigris, right? Mm-hmm. So we see a little bit of resistance from the inside and I don't know, there's just some interesting things there too.
Mm-hmm. And we haven't really talked about that much, but the capital is sort of queer coded, but not really uhhuh. And I find that fascinating. Like they're really into personal self-expression, like changing body. Mm-hmm. Skin type, uh, piercings, tigress, like literally changes herself into a cat, uhhuh. All of these things that are supposedly queer coated, but really it's just kind of about distraction.
Mm-hmm. And that's not what being queer is about. That is sort of like a. Religious right. Authoritarian view of what queerness is. Mm-hmm. So I just wanted to Yeah. Say my own thoughts on that. Yeah,
Krispin: totally. 'cause I think that's, like I said, we've talked about that throughout the series about how the capital feels queer coded, and that feels really like, but
DL: wealth, safety, ion comfort, totally trump the queerness, right?
Yes. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So, yeah. Right.
Krispin: Totally.
DL: Should we do rapid fire sad things? People who die?
Krispin: Yes, Uhhuh. Let's do that.
DL: Okay. The one that kills the fandom the most is pH die.
Krispin: I was gonna say, we, we, in all the action, we skipped over fi dying, and that is very sad. He
DL: dies in a terrible way.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: The mutts kill him. Mm-hmm. He's screaming his head off for forever. Right.
Krispin: You
DL: know? Mm-hmm. Just kind of, this is, it is almost like Candice is just reliving all the hunger games she's already lived through, but worse. Mm-hmm. So I hate that for her. I hate that for them. Um, then snow is like, basically tells the citizens of the Capitol that you can come and find refuge in the palace, right?
Mm-hmm. Where I'm at, we'll protect you, we'll keep you safe. So then Kane's little team is like, well, let's go there. We'll pretend to be capital refugees ourselves and go hide. And then that's how we'll get to snow.
Krispin: Right? So as the viewer. You're all queued up to be like, all right, we're just waiting for Catis to like go into the capitol to assassinate snow.
Right? Yeah. Like that's where your head is at.
DL: Yeah. And then all this stuff happens. It's sort of confusing, but they like put all the capital children like together in this one section and they think they're gonna be getting like supplies and food and Right. You know what I mean? Yeah.
Krispin: Basically snow is like everyone, you know, all the capital CI citizens come to my mansion.
Yes. And they prioritize the children. They're like, all right, bring the children to the front. Front Up to the front. Yeah. Right. And
DL: so they're all kind of crowded into this one space. And then some planes come and some bombs start dropping. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And actually the kids think it's aid and think it's food.
So they're running towards it.
Krispin: Uhhuh, because it looks like the gifts that we're given in the Hunger Games.
DL: Yes. So then they start exploding. People are screaming, people are freaking out. Kaus is freaking out. Mm-hmm. Um, then. Medics start to come in to help the kids. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Who've been, who've been bombed,
DL: who've been bombed, and Kane sees Prim.
Mm-hmm. There's some District 13 medics there, right? Mm-hmm. Um, I don't know how they got there. I forget. You know, none of this is really explained very well. Right. Um, so then the medics rush in to help, and then the fire bombs come Right, right. Second
Krispin: explosion and just
DL: take out everyone. Mm-hmm. And in the book, it's very horrible because I, maybe I shouldn't say Mm, but basically Katniss just sees Prim burn in front of her.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Whereas in the movie, you, you see prim and then you see an explosion.
DL: Yeah. So that's it. Then Kanas is blacked out. Right, right.
Krispin: Yeah. So
DL: that freaking sucks.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: This whole movie has been about Katniss protecting Prim, and now Prims Dead.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: Then it can along
Krispin: with a bunch of children.
Yeah. Yes. Right. It's just devastating on like every level.
DL: Yeah. And so I, I'm gonna get a little confused here, but I think that's fine.
Krispin: Basically, Catniss wakes up,
DL: Uhhuh
Krispin: from being blacked out, you know, realizes prim is dead, um, and then goes to and realizes like, oh, it's over. Right? Like, the capital is surrendered, snow has been captured.
Right. While she was blacked out, kind of all this stuff happened.
DL: Bitcoin's the interim president, right? Supposedly they're gonna have Democratic elections. Mm-hmm. Do you think that's gonna happen?
Krispin: Uh, no. Who knows? We'll, we'll get to that in a minute. Knows, but yeah. Kaus basically is allowed to go see snow and talk to him.
DL: No, she just goes,
Krispin: oh, okay.
DL: Palor is there and parlor's like you should. Allow her to talk to him.
Krispin: Uhhuh, right now, remember
DL: Parlor's the commander from District eight.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right? So, so she goes in and talks to snow, and Snow says, I didn't bomb the children. Yeah. Like, who, how would I have gained from this?
Yes. And who would gain from telling a story that I bombed their children.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right. And of course, Katniss is remembering like, she's heard these plans from Gail and Heavens be,
DL: yeah. So now Katniss is like, no, this can't be true. My mortal enemy cannot be telling me
Krispin: that. Right. And he says his classic line, which is like, we agreed we weren't gonna lie to each other.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right. And which is it? Yeah. It's, it's, it's a very interesting, I think even just like I said, you're, you're just like waiting that you're, you're along on this mission of Catis. Going to kill snow and then all of a sudden you're like, everything's changed.
DL: Yeah. And supposedly seeing the scenes of the carnage and the horror is what convinced, like District two convinced everyone to be like, okay, we freaking hate the capitol because of what they just did to these kids.
Mm-hmm. Which again, is so wild. And like that's what caused all the palace guards and everyone to basically surrender mm-hmm. And give up. And again, you're like, because the Capitol kids died when mm-hmm. The Hunger Games have been killing the other people anyways. Right. It gets well, but I think
Krispin: it speaks to Yeah, totally.
It has to impact you personally. Yeah. I think the other part too is there is this ongoing question about what do people in the Capitol know?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Right. But this is televised, it's clear, I mean, it feels clear to the, the capitol people that, uh, the capitol just bombed their children.
DL: Yeah. And so in the, in the movie, like Catniss is pretty obviously.
Very traumatized Uhhuh, um, has one conversation with Gail, right? Mm-hmm. Where she's like, was it ear bomb? He's like, I don't know, but I know he's sad about it, but it's like, yeah, he's been saying this whole time if I could kill a switch, I mean, if I could flip a switch and kill all the capitalists since I would, like, he made the, he made up this idea of this bomb.
Mm-hmm. The two prong approach, you know?
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: So that gets Gail out of the love triangle. Mm-hmm.
Krispin: And then they meet together as all the victors from the Hunger Games.
DL: Yes. So Katniss and Peta, and you know, Mitch. Hey Mitch. There's a few others that are still around.
Krispin: Annie, right?
DL: Annie's there. Um, Joanna, Joanna, and, and Roby.
Is that how you say her? I'm not sure. But anyways, bd, BT is there. So Bt so then coin's like. Okay, so we're gonna do this big public thing where we execute snow, we talk about the new Pan Am you know, I'm the interim president and I think we should do like a ceremonial Hunger Games one time just using kids from the Capitol.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right. So basically she's saying like, there is a, amongst the oppressed district, yes. There's so much anger to the capitol. Yes. They wanna, you know, she, what she's saying anyway, is like they're gonna want to kill everyone from the capitol. So instead of doing that to, because there's so
DL: few humans left, we need to keep it.
So let's just do one ceremonial hunger games. And she's like, and we're gonna let the remaining victors. Vote. Mm-hmm. Decide on it. Mm-hmm. So here's one more existential problem to solve. Uhhuh, um, you can kind of guess who's gonna vote, what Guess who says no immediately? Peta. Peta. Mm-hmm. Right. He's like, absolutely not, you know?
Mm-hmm. Now Peta, meanwhile, husband's struggling. Mm-hmm. Okay. And the, they don't really talk about it in the book, but this is like the first time you and Kane see each other, you know? Mm-hmm. Joanna is like, no, let's do it. You know? Mm-hmm. Annie's like, no, Finnick wouldn't have wanted it. I don't want it.
You know, BTS like, no, this is madness. We can't keep doing this. And Roy was like, do it. You know? Mm-hmm. So then it kind of comes down to Kane and Hamit. Mm-hmm. I think this is a really interesting part.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Because you have to explain it to me. I watched it, yes. But I remember being like, D's gonna have to explain this to me later.
So Hamid is
DL: watching Kane, PETA is watching, Kane coin is watching ca. It's really all about Kanu. Mm-hmm. At the end. Mm-hmm. And she's like really quiet. And then she's just like, let's do it. I vote yes for the hungry. And so Peter's like, what the f Like mm-hmm. You know, in inwardly, right? And Hamit is just looking at Kanu and he is like, I'm with the mocking J.
Mm-hmm. And so, which is really interesting 'cause he's like, Katniss inwardly in the book is like, I hope hey, Mitch is tracking with me. And 'cause they sort of have this weird connection. Okay. And then he is, but in the book it doesn't even say what she's thinking. So then, right, they do the whole thing and Katniss is like, if I get to be the one to kill Snow
Krispin: Uhhuh,
DL: so then she gets stressed up as the mocking.
Jay has her thing, he's out in front of this huge crowd of people like tied to this stake. Um, coin is up there kind of being like, it's a new era. Like the mocking Jay is here to, you know, do this and then we'll move forward and. She announces the thing about the Hunger Games with the kids,
Krispin: and by the way, this is like a weird little side note, but I had this feeling that like, so Katniss is set up, dressed up as the mocking Jay.
Mm-hmm. In front of everyone to kill snow. And I was like, she is hating this. She would hate for it to be televised, for it to be used for the,
DL: yeah.
Krispin: Propaganda. Like, I don't know, I just had that sense of like knowing Katniss, I'm like, she like, it feels so unc Katten to like have it all so staged.
DL: That's so interesting.
Because I'm like, I guess I didn't think about that. And she's not thinking about any of that just because of what she's actually thinking. Mm-hmm. So she goes to shoot snow. Mm-hmm. And then the last second she changes it up and she shoots coin. And Coin dies. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then Snow is just laughing his ass off.
Kane is then tries to take the night lock pill and kill herself, but Peter rushes her. Grabs it, and she is just living in the book. She's just like, let me die, let me die. Let me die. Right? Mm-hmm. Prims gone. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. PETA's dead to her, you know, like Right. Gail's got, she has nothing left to live for.
Mm-hmm. Okay. And p and Peter's like, I can't, I can't let you. And so she's like taken into custody because obviously she just killed the president of the new Pan. Am. Mm-hmm. Um, she's pretty out of it. And basically plu tar, Kevins being Hamit and all these people come up with this plan, like there, she's put on trial, but then they make this case that she's insane.
Okay. That's not in the movie, it's in the book. Right. The
Krispin: movie, basically, it's just like, she's like, uh, in prison for a little bit and then she's released and they don't really, they just say like, once things calm down,
DL: it takes a while, but she is acting insane. So they're like, mm-hmm. Okay. Like, she's not eating, she's not sleeping, she's not talking.
She's. You know, um, PETA is like recovering this whole time with like, some district 13 doctors just working on his mental health, all that stuff. Mm-hmm. Um, but finally they're like, okay, hey Mitch, you're in charge of Kat and you both have been exiled to District 12, which basically the only things left in District 12 are the Victor's houses.
Mm-hmm. So they go back there, there's like a hundred or so, maybe a little bit more people that are in District 12. Okay. And they're like, yeah, district 13 has done nothing for us. Mm-hmm. Like, we are here to survive on our own. Like, mm. They've done nothing. And so KA and Hamit. Really. Yeah. Okay. Um, what else do you wanna talk about here?
Krispin: Yeah, I mean, I, I think just kind of like, um, uh, finishing up the Gale story, Gale becomes like a commander in the military.
DL: Yeah. And then the person that. All the leaders of the districts come together and kind of vote into power is pal, you know? Oh, right. Mm-hmm. Who was in charge of District eight and that cat
Krispin: and there was a Democratic election.
Yeah. Because presumably because Katniss killed Coin, because there were all these clues. That Coin was, you know, she was like, yeah, we'll, we'll vote for a new president. When things settle down, when things settle down, when the time is right, when the, you know, like we haven't set a specific date, but I'll be, you know, on the lookout for when it's time.
And so, um, even though I, you know, I think Katniss kills coin because she thinks that because Coin killed Prim. Yeah. There's this other element which is like, yeah. This interim person that's actually just grasping at power and not giving indications that they're gonna give it up. It's just
DL: the same as Snow.
Krispin: Exactly. So she kills,
DL: like Snow recognizes game. Right. And he's the one who's like, I've been focused on you this whole time, Kaus. Mm-hmm. And really. Coin is the one I should have been worried about. I mean, he basically says that. Mm-hmm. Right. So that's what's so interesting. And then Kane kind of, you know, ends that now in the book.
It's when Kanes goes back to district 12, it's like all of this big picture stuff is over and she is just a total mess. The movie kind of pissed me off because she looks beautiful, she looks, but in the book, she's been burned so bad. Like she has so many injuries. She's, she doesn't wash, she doesn't talk, she doesn't, she basically turns into Hamit, right?
Mm-hmm. Her house becomes this like horrific, messy. So then, but gr say is there and starts cooking and cleaning for Kanu. Um, who is that? She is the person who used to work at the hob. Oh, okay. You know, this old lady that. Went back to the District 12. Oh, okay. You know, 'cause she's like, what? This is my life, you know?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Just, um, and like that is, is how Katniss is. And then eventually after a few months PETA is released, he's like, okay, he's not a danger to society mm-hmm. Anymore. So he goes back to District 12 as well, and kind of was like, wants to be around Kane, but is kind of worried about it 'cause of all his issues.
And then it's just, I think it's very sweet. Mm-hmm. And very beautiful. He finds some primrose flowers and is trying to plant them in her house. Mm-hmm. And she just like, storms out. She's like, what? It, you know, like, yeah. Can't even talk. And he just like, slowly, slowly, slowly, you know mm-hmm. Integrates himself into her life.
And as she's grieving, as she's totally freaking out. It's just a really, really slow process and the movie kind of speeds it up, right? Mm-hmm. It jumps at the very end to this like, what, 10 years later something, right? Yeah. And her and PETA have kids and whatever. Mm-hmm. Um, which is sort of shocking since this whole time she's been like, I don't wanna have kids Uhhuh.
Right. I don't actually even wanna be in a relationship. Mm-hmm. Like, this world sucks so bad. So like, how did you feel about that ending with like the soft, beautiful lighting? They're in a field, everybody's happy. She's in a dress. She looks like a drag wife.
Krispin: Right. Uhhuh with a kid,
DL: you know? I was like, huh.
I remember,
Krispin: I feel like the enduring impression I have that of that scene is from when I first watched it. So I wasn't really thinking about that stuff. I just remember being like. Whoa. This is a person that like survived all this injustice and violence and she is just like, just wants a quiet life. Yeah.
And I think, I don't know, I was just thinking about like, for me, having my own trauma and then, you know, I think this feeling of like, oh, you have to keep fighting. Yeah. And so it just really struck me to be like, oh, like you can try to return to like some just like normal life that is meaningful to you.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Um, but also as she's talking, she's like, yeah, I still have nightmares every night. So there is that like enduring Yeah. Impact as well.
DL: Yeah. I have a couple thoughts on, on the end. One is that one of the things that bog said to Katniss right when they were talking about like, why would Coin send Peter?
Like, he's like, you're not gonna die on my watch. Like, and she's like, why? And he's like, you deserve to live. Mm-hmm. You know, a quiet life basically is what he says. Uhhuh. Yeah. And so in one way I'm like, well, I'm happy that that works out. I think this, again, I'm gonna bring up PETA's games, this incredible fanfic that really delves into this period, right?
This InBetween period. And like how PETA and Kanu kind of like help each other while also like working on their own shit. Mm-hmm. Because that's really important to me too. Mm-hmm. Um, C-P-T-S-D, like you can't heal it by being in a romantic relationship. Now that doesn't mean that finding safe people can't totally be a part of healing.
Like Yeah, that is, but
Krispin: it's funny because I was thinking about this, where I am totally that person that has that like fantasy of the romantic relationship. Yes, you do. Yeah.
DL: Right?
Krispin: Um, and in part because it does happen sometimes.
DL: As a, as a like a component of the healing, right? Yes.
Krispin: Right. Totally. And like, I think that this is a good picture of like, even Yeah.
I think PETA's is a really good picture Yeah. Of like, he's doing a lot of his own work, but he's also like integrating with others. But it is, it's, it's, yeah. I mean, and I recognize like I over romanticize that. Part of that is because of the type of therapy that I was trained in that really kind of believes a lot of that of like, that, uh, that significant other in your life can help heal your attachment trauma.
DL: Yeah. And
Krispin: sometimes that happens, sometimes it doesn't.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Um, so, well you're,
DL: you're more like, p you have a more romantic bent to you. Mm-hmm. So I think that is also a good thing to say is like, well, there's lots of different types of people in the world, like Right. Hamit is interesting. What's your sense of what happens to Hamit?
Because the movie doesn't do a whole lot
Krispin: right. With him? Yeah. I mean, I. I just think about when he says I'm with Mock with a mocking day. Yeah. To me, like when you, I didn't know that part about like them being exiled together, but I'm like, yeah, I could just imagine him having a quiet life looking out for her.
DL: He doesn't really look out for her.
Krispin: Oh, that's the
DL: funny thing. Yeah. Is he just leaves her be, 'cause he is just like, what can I do? Mm-hmm. When pet comes back, they do start having dinners and stuff together and all that, but, huh. He doesn't really do a great job Uhhuh of, uh, taking care of Candice and like the, one of the few things they say in the books is, first of all, he kind of keeps going back and forth between being totally.
Blitzed out on alcohol and then not having access to it and sober bring up. Mm-hmm. But the one thing they do say is that he gets really into taking care of geese. Oh,
Krispin: okay. That is really funny. Isn't
DL: that funny? And so I think it's actually helpful to have Hamish there as this, like, and here's another thing that happens when you've experienced so much trauma, is you could become a hermit who abuses substances and then also raises geese.
Mm-hmm. Like, um, and is a part of the community in your own way, even though you don't quote, unquote get healed. Right. Uhhuh. And so I think that's interesting. Now, I used to be a lot more like kanu, where it's like you just gotta survive the rest of your life mm-hmm. And be on your own because everybody's disappointed.
You. As I've healed more, I've become more romantic and I've seen like how romantic relationships, you know, can be a part of healing, just almost from like, um, a co-regulation standpoint. Mm-hmm. Also. You know, there's lots of criticism, like Kane should have ended up with nobody and it's so stupid, you know, that I'm like, hello
Krispin: Peter?
What the penis of it all the,
DL: I know penis, vitamin D might be real good. I don't know. But I just think like they both went through the two same hunger games together. Mm-hmm. Like of course they're gonna have a lot in common, just dealing with the trauma of that together, like mm-hmm. I don't know. To me it makes so much sense that they end up together and that it takes a long time to get there.
Mm-hmm. If that makes sense. Yeah. Also, I'm like, we cannot downplay the power of romantic love as a form of resistance to authoritarianism. Mm-hmm. Stop downplaying that. It's incredibly important. Right. And people say like. And maybe I'm getting ahead of myself. Maybe this is the Love triangle segment a little early, but I'm like, people get annoyed that that is a part of the book if they're really into the more like, social critique of it.
But I'm like, mm-hmm. This is absolutely important. Mm. Mm-hmm. It's very attractive to stand up to authoritarianism. Mm-hmm. Look at Luigi, you know what I mean? Look at how the Internet's responded. Like, right. Stop downplaying that Uhhuh, this is a revolutionary tactic. Mm-hmm. Okay. To be in love with others who are resisting mm-hmm.
I think is great.
Krispin: Right.
DL: So
Krispin: I agree. Yeah. Is it epic quote time
DL: almost. I, I just think that there's a lot of criticism too for how abruptly the book ends and it gets to this happy place of Katniss has her own kids, like PETA wore her down, I guess. Mm, mm-hmm. Um, and she eventually felt safe enough to have kids.
Um, so there's like tons of fanfic out there. That really explores that in between time and Oh, huh. I think that's, I think that's a really interesting picture of like what the readers and what people want is they wanna see like, how does someone slowly inch their way towards healing. Mm-hmm. And even though I do have problems with like the tra wife of it all mm-hmm.
There's still something very interesting, like this started with this existential threat of you have to teach your kids about the Hunger Games. Now this is how the book ends. Do you want me to talk about the epic ending quote of the book? Yeah. Mm-hmm. This is, this is how Kaus ends it. She's talking about like, how will I tell my kids?
'cause her and Peta work on this book where they kind of write down all their memories, all the people they met, they write everything they remember about Finnick, about, you know, bogs like everything. Mm-hmm. And so this is how the, this is how the Hunger Game series, and this is Kat is talking, she says, talking about her kids.
I will tell them how I survive it. I'll tell them on the bad mornings, it feels impossible to take pleasure in anything because I'm afraid it could be taken away. That's when I make a list in my head of every act of goodness I've seen someone do. It's like a game repetitive, even a little tedious after more than 20 years, but there are much worse games to play, and I just thought, damn, that is C-P-T-S-D, right?
Mm-hmm. There like when good things happen to you, you are immediately terrified. It's going to go away. I experience that all the time. I know others who have C-P-T-S-D too. And so she just has this really simple thing, which is one of the mental health things they tell you to do, right? Mm-hmm. Is you can make a list of all the people who love you, all the good things in your life, the glimmers in your life, right?
Mm-hmm. And so she's saying like, I remember Finnick, I remember Bogs, I remember Annie, I remember, you know, like, yeah, peta, I remember all these people. And she's had to do this for 20 years at this point. Hmm. And she's like, it does get a little repetitive, but like, this is how you move forward. Like this is actually living life.
So I don't know. Yeah. I thought it was a beautiful ending, honestly. Uhhuh. Yeah. You know? Yeah.
Krispin: I liked it a lot. And I feel like I, I mean, that was watching it. I was, I was surprised in a way, but I had this sense like. Katniss is not gonna do anything she doesn't want to do. So if she ends up here, to me, I think that's how I kinda, yeah.
Ken
DL: can't pressure her into anything. Right. Are you kidding me? Exactly
Krispin: Right. Yeah. So that, that's how I see it is like, oh, this is, this is something that she chose and she wants a quiet life and she deserves that.
DL: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Rapid fire. What's your favorite scene in MJ, part two?
Krispin: Annie and Phoenix Wedding.
Aw. As we talked about,
DL: sweet. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mine is, um. Maybe it's at the wedding too, but Kanu wearing like a utilitarian jumpsuit. Uhhuh looks just like a non-binary icon. Uhhuh, if you asked me Uhhuh, love it. Mm-hmm. I love it so much. And again, maybe that's why I'm so annoyed that she looks like a tro wife at the very end.
So I was like, uh, Kanu looked hot in a jumpsuit. Uhhuh like a mechanic's jumpsuit. Do that. So that's what I, that's what I thought. Okay. Least favorite scene.
Krispin: Uh, I'm afraid I'm gonna steal yours, but the scene when Finn dies. Yeah. And there's all the like zombie mutts. Amphibian mutts, things that are rushing through the sewers.
DL: I have so many least favorite scenes. I don't even wanna talk about it, but it's that whole capital thing. Mm-hmm. Okay. That whole. Capital Hunger Games part, I hate almost every second of it. Also,
Krispin: also, I got bored during the snow in Kanes talking scene. What? I dunno. That's, that's the win that my brain works.
I
DL: love it. He is truly a badie in a way that maybe we will get to in one of our questions. Okay? Mm-hmm. Okay. Um, you wanna hear some, I only highlighted one quote from the book, which I just read. Mm-hmm. Then I took some notes 'cause I read the book a a few weeks or months ago. You wanna hear my notes? Yes.
That I put on my phone. Uhhuh. Okay. Here's Mym J part two notes. Uh, one is I wrote, Gail said if I had food like this, I would believe the Capital's lies. Um, Gail saying, Kane will choose whoever she can't live without. That's Gail's take on Katniss, which shows a fundamental misreading of who she is. He just views her as a survivor and nothing else.
Where I think Peta views her as a very complex, interesting. Soft. Mm-hmm. And intense person. Um, and then I said, why is Palor dressed like a Jedi? 'cause that really stood out to me. Palor, who ends up becoming, um, the presence always dressed like a Jedi where nobody else is. So I was like, what's that about?
So those are my only,
um, we've already talked about Love Triangle Corner. Mm-hmm. I'm glad that Gail can go off and live his life and feel his regrets, hopefully. Mm-hmm. Very glad Katniss ends up with peta, and I'm not ashamed of that. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm just interested in your perspective as a trauma therapist. How do you think these books and movies did with all that?
Krispin: For one, I feel like, um, PETA's like recovery is much more clinical and like medical than like real healing is. Yeah. Um, and actually like in a lot of ways, like. I mean, we just don't really see what happens with him. But I would presume that a lot of like image-based, expression based art therapy Yeah.
Would be really helpful for him. Yeah. Just because, uh, they used these really bad images in his mind to hijack him, and so, um, yeah, it just feels, it, you know, again, it feels very, uh, kind of. Disconnected from like what trauma healing really looks like. Um, I, one thing that I think is about this is I, I like, do I like that Catis continues to have nightmares?
I'm not sure. 'cause I think that it is sort of a pessimistic look at trauma. Yes. And I think that there, there's holding both and, and some people out there will say things like, yeah, you can be totally healed from trauma. I don't think that's true. I think you're continuing to heal and we live in a, in a world that's not perfect.
So like, what does that even look like? But there are also people out there that are like, well, you'll never heal. Never heal from trauma. These things will always bother you. And I don't think that always has to be true either. I think that there, I know from my own life that there are certain things where I'm like, yeah, that used to be a trigger.
And now it's just like, I just don't think twice about it. Um, yeah,
DL: I That's such a good point. Like I think a lot of literature about trauma is like, yeah, you're gonna have nightmares every night and relive the games and then wake up and you know, have to recover. I'm like. I mean, maybe every once in a while.
Right. But in reality, what ends up happening is like you have a really difficult time in your interpersonal relationships 'cause you can't trust anyone and mm-hmm. And you're always panicked and like, yeah. When something good happens to you, you're immediately engulfed with this sense of like, doom, doom, doom, doom.
You know, like, right. That's more the reality now. They get into that a little bit in the book, but not much. And I just think as far as it goes with strong-willed, you know, we're not talking about like hunger games level stuff, but we are talking about the impacts of just intense amounts of stress that you experience as a child in a religious authoritarian home.
Especially when you're being physically punished for every act of willful Right. Willfulness. You know what I mean? Yeah. There's violence
Krispin: there.
DL: There's violence. And so our project is about the long-term impacts of violence on children and how that shows up for people can be really different. But you know, for both you and I, we're still dealing with the long-term impacts.
Of how we were raised, and then also just what we've experienced in life. And it just shows up in these ways that are really surprising and sometimes disheartening. Like, I can't believe this is still happening. Like I totally had an emotional flashback last night, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. To just this feeling like a teenager and unseen and unwanted and unknown.
And then I even had to dream about it, which is interesting. And, you know, I'm at the place in my own healing where I can wake up and be like, Hey, I show up for myself. Like, I don't need anybody to see me. Like I see myself and that feels really good. And, but it's still just like shocking when it's like, oh my God, I'm literally in my emotions feeling like I'm 13.
Mm-hmm. Like, I'm being flashback when I'm 13. Like, that's uncomfortable, but like I can get through it in part because I have people like you, I have my own kids, like, you know, I've. My garden, I have my dog. Like I have these things that do ground me in this life. But it's still, you basically
Krispin: are cat. I am at the end of hunger games,
DL: except I'm not, I still feel this desire to fight, to make propaganda, to stop evil from happening.
Like it's, I'm, I am definitely like trying to balance mm-hmm. Both. Mm-hmm. Right. That's true. But what most survivors of trauma, what they want is they want a soft, quiet home to land in. Mm-hmm. And I actually do have that. And so this is just me sort of like talking out loud to myself that even though there's so many horrible things going on in the world, and honestly in like my extended family, like there's so much drama happening in my life, and yet I do have these spaces where I'm like, this is the life I wanna live.
Mm-hmm. And I'm living it. Mm-hmm. I dunno, these books are really impactful to me. Mm-hmm. I think the third book and the third and fourth movies are where it kind of goes off the rails a bit. I think
Krispin: I, I would push back on that a little bit because, uh, yeah, it's a little weird, but I think, and it's a little hard to follow, but I think you're making
DL: a great case for it.
Krispin: No, but despite those things, I think that there are some really interesting themes that come up. Yeah. And I think that it really, I think it's very important because if it had just ended at this place of like, all right, now district 13 is taking over the capitol
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: There, it would not be a complete picture of the way that power works.
Yeah. And I feel like that, that's what I love about these books is it's, it's a investigation and exploration of how power works.
DL: Yeah, totally. Absolutely. And. Just here's a plug for anything that deals with dystopian stuff, like Yeah. If they're not talking about power mm-hmm. If they're not doing social critiques, um, it's ridiculous.
Mm-hmm. There's that. Um, I, okay. Should we do some questions? Yes. Comments, Uhhuh. Okay. Uh, the big one we keep getting is why do conservatives like Hunger Games? And do you have any thoughts on that?
Krispin: Um, I think because of what we talked about before, the aesthetics I think are easier for people to think of the capital as queer coded and the minors as, you know, conservative people in the US so, yeah.
DL: Or do they think it's about socialism or communism? You know what I mean? Right. Because growing up, when I heard about totalitarianism, it was communism. Oh, Uhhuh. There was no fear of fascism or far right. Authoritarian. No, no, no. That could never happen in America. We are scared of the liberals. Mm-hmm. And their totalitarian ways and their tyranny.
Right, right. Which. It is just hard right now when Yeah. The people that have been screaming, like if the, if there's government overreach, we're gonna fight back. Well, they ain't fighting back Crispin. Mm-hmm. They are rolling over on their bellies. They're licking boots left and right, and so it's like, oh man.
Mm-hmm. These people are not on our side. Right. I, yeah, I think it's the queer coded thing. I think it's like the conservatives like that they always think of themselves as being against tyranny, but they're not. Mm-hmm. So there we go.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think it has a lot to do with whether or not you are, uh, have been educated around power dynamics.
Right. And can like, kind of what you just said, but like, yeah, can you actually see power dynamics in the real world or not?
DL: It's honestly the easiest thing in the world, and I think this movie and this book actually does this well, it's like if you are, if you are agreeing with the people in power, like.
Fucking take a second. Mm-hmm. You, you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: I'm not like my dad. When Biden was president, I was extremely upset mm-hmm. Every single day about the things the Biden administration was doing. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Because in many ways, they were just carrying on the legacy of Trump paving the way for Trump 2.0.
And then they even had some like false sense of safety. Mm-hmm. That actually has been worse. Right. Right. Um, so that's why I'm like, if you are agreeing with the people in power, you just need to check yourself. Mm-hmm. And that's what, you know, conservatives are doing.
Krispin: So what I love about this series is the game maker part of it, because you have the game maker who makes the Hunger Games.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: But what becomes clear very quickly is snow is actually the game maker and the game is society and
DL: or is it really plu tar Hesby. Who ends up helping Coin Oh. And then is sort of intrigued when Kaus does her thing is like, sure. And let's be democratic elect elect Palor, you know, he's a survivor.
Krispin: Right. And
DL: he's just sort of like, sure, I can adapt, I can move. He kind of helps Katniss get, you know, exiled and survive. Mm-hmm. But yeah, in the books, he's like, yeah, he kinda gets off and is like, yeah, I did this. You know? Right. Yeah. And I expect to be rewarded. Right. For doing this. So that's interesting.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: Okay. You had a question from one of our friends. Yeah.
Krispin: So I have a friend and he was asking, he was like, you know, people talk about the Hunger Games is like way less simplistic than like, Marvel movies. Uhhuh, right. Um, he's like, but snow is not complicated. He's just pure evil. So he was kind of asking like, why do people think of this as like a complicated series when that character is really not complicated?
I'm curious what you would say.
DL: Um, he's, well, I would be like, is Trump complicated? Snow's infinitely more complicated than Trump uhhuh, if that makes sense.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And then what really makes it complicated is coin. Mm-hmm. So I, that's where I find it to be. Right. The sad thing about a reality in America is like, it's too on the nose.
Mm-hmm. It's too buffoonish, it's too ridiculous. Um, Peter Thiel, if you just look up him like he is so cartoonishly villainous. Mm-hmm. It's honestly disturbing. I mean, Elon Musk right. With his AI machine called Grok that is poisoning black communities in Tennessee. Like, what? Mm-hmm. How is this real? Right.
Like Ray Bradbury would be like, no. Like, this is too ridiculous. Mm. And so, right. I still think snow is more complicated than our real life.
Krispin: Yeah. I feel like men in
DL: charge,
Krispin: I feel like. People in general are complicated. Um, our society in general, like the people that support different things and are a part of different movements and causes and like different political affiliations are complicated.
I also believe that there are certain people that are geared towards just power and control, and they will try to take it at whatever cost, and that is how they orient their whole life. Mm-hmm. And that's not very complicated.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And those are the people that we continually have to fight against. Um, right.
It's just like, yeah, if we could all, um, if we could all agree to like get, get along and work things out, but then you have these power hungry people that want all the control and all the power, and that just makes it hard to have like a civil society.
DL: Well, I'm gonna say something really depressing.
Mm-hmm. So the whole ending of the Hunger Games, which is Katniss and Pita, get to live their quiet little life. It's like, yeah. When all the cool healing people do that, the awful people seize power. Right. So that's why this is sort of about these cycles of violence and how the people who most deserve rest.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like we don't get that. Mm-hmm. And we have to find moments of that. Mm-hmm. You know, we're never gonna truly be exiled. Like we have to find it in the moment while we can. That's my big push. I will say I have not read the Ballad of Songs and Snakes. Songbirds and Snakes, nor have I watched the movie.
So I
Krispin: was gonna say, and I can't remember it. 'cause I think that does Wow. That does offer some of the,
DL: the complexity probably, uh, yes. To President Snow. Now this is just me. I'm probably not gonna read that book. Mm-hmm. But. I am gonna read Sunrise on the Reaping, and we actually have a very fun thing to announce, which is we're gonna do an in-person book club in Gresham, Oregon at Maggie Mays books, which is this awesome local, um, queer friendly bookstore.
Um, September 28th, so you got some time. You could plan a little trip out to the suburbs of Portland if you want. Um, we're gonna be doing an in-person book club on Sunrise on the reaping. It's free. If you wanna buy a book through Maggie Mays, um, and support a local bookstore, you can get it at 10% off. You could just email us at Strong-Willed project@gmail.com.
If you wanna come to that, we'd love to see you. And if you can't come, we will do an online discussion post as well. So if people wanna read Sunrise on the reaping, which I've heard great things about, that's about Hamit. So we're gonna keep this, we're gonna keep this going, um, with an in-person event.
It'll be at five 15 to 7:00 PM September 28th. Maggie Mays bookstore, Gresham, Oregon. We hope to see you there. We might have some cool local friends come, people that you might know of, who also do fun things on the internet. Related to ex evangelicals. So hey, we wanted to throw that out there.
Krispin: Yeah, we're very excited.
Excited to, to hang out with people in person if you're local. Sorry for the people that are, I feel like we have a lot of Midwest folks, so sorry to you. Hey,
DL: Midwesterners, we love you. You can still read the book and we'll do a discussion post. Mm-hmm. Um, about that.
Krispin: Yeah. How are you feeling finishing up this series of our podcast?
DL: God, I feel like at the beginning of starting this series, I was, I'm still in that like. I have my own mocking Jay moments, right? Where I'm like, yes, we're gonna convince everyone to resist. And now resistance is a long game. Y'all, the Catholic church thinks in centuries, so does Dr. Dobson, and I guess we have to as well.
So it's like keep doing the slow everyday work of connecting to yourself, of allowing your brain to think through issues in literature and media and find those moments of quiet, be like Kaus. Um, when you experience pleasure and joy, and then the dread and the doom and the despair and the apocalyptic threaten to overwhelm you.
Like remind yourself of all the people who are doing good right here, right now, who have done in the past. This is something you and I talk about a bit, but like that we used to put all of our energies into Jesus, right? Jesus was perfect. Jesus was good. Mm-hmm. We could be like him. And now we're like, I don't know.
A lot of people think a lot of the things Jesus thought, and they're just normies. Mm-hmm. And they're just out here living life, uhhuh and caring about the planet, caring about other humans, and they're like anarchists and immigrants and queer people, you know, like mm-hmm. They're kind of just everywhere.
Right. And you just have to know where to look. So that's what we're gonna do. There's so many of you out there who are doing that work. We're so grateful for you. Um, keep going.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: That's my pep talk.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel a little sad about ending this series. Because it really has been a way to process so much of what's going on in real life.
And, um, so I think with that, like, I'm hoping to continue to find ways to process, kinda like with what you're saying, like being expressive, getting in touch with your feelings, making room for all of it, right? Processing what's going on politically right now, but also having space to carve out space for yourself and your own wellbeing.
DL: So, and real resistance is, is going to need to happen. Mm-hmm. Um, interrupt ice wherever you see it, you know? Mm-hmm. Especially if you're a person of privilege. So, you know, there's real life things we need to be doing and also just reminding ourselves we're traumatized people, um, moving towards a world where our children will, will not have to pay for the sins of these, of these men, right?
Mm-hmm. These adults. And so, mm-hmm. We're gonna keep doing that. Um, as far as like what's coming next for strong-willed, we are gonna be doing some more episodes on, um, sort of like these patterns of abuse and how actually religious authoritarianism grooms children for abuse. We're gonna be talking about that.
I have an interview with R El Stroller coming up, um, and that's kind of gonna carry through the summer, a nice light, fun topic. We have some great patron only podcast episodes coming up, so please subscribe if you wanna hear those. We will be talking about the movie Spotlight. Um, and some other things which you just
Krispin: made a nod to when you said
DL: I
Krispin: did the
DL: Catholic Church thinks in centuries.
Centuries. So feel free to re-watch Spotlight an incredible movie. Um, if you wanna have some of those discussions, um, with us on the podcast and the patron only, we appreciate your support so much. If you share about this podcast, if you like it, if you subscribe to any of our work, it just helps us keep going because we're in the trenches, uh, with family of origin stuff and just life and um, summer
Krispin: Heat for heat sensitive people and it just adds an extra layer.
Right?
DL: But yeah, thanks so much everyone. We appreciate you. So much we couldn't do this without you. Mm-hmm. Um, thanks for living through the hungry games with us.
Krispin: Yeah. I just want to, yeah, I totally agree with dl, that it just means so much that y'all have invested in this work. Um, it just is really meaningful to be able to have these conversations.
Thanks for listening along as we recapped this.
DL: Oh, I forgot to say, I am gonna be doing an episode on how Mr. Whitaker from Adventures and Odyssey fits the profile of a predator. Um, so be able for that one,
Krispin: right. I'm like, is this this excitement? Is this like dread? It's both. It's all, it's both
DL: baby,
Krispin: right?
Yes. So yeah, definitely come back soon because we're gonna be talking about that. Thank you all so much for listening. We'll be back soon.
DL: Bye.
