Welcome to STRONGWILLED, the multimedia publication aimed at helping survivors of Religious Authoritarian PArenting methods reclaim autonomy and develop solidarity. During this holiday season, we are sharing some personal stories of estrangement on our podcast. You can listen to STRONGWILLED wherever you normally listen to podcasts, or you can download and listen here at Substack. If you appreciate our content, consider becoming a paid subscriber and supporting this survivor-led and survivor-centric project.
The holidays can be a tough time, and we hope you are able to take some time to slow down, be gentle with yourself, and give space to all the feelings that these times can bring up.
TW: sexual abuse, spanking, religious trauma
TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN LIGHTLY EDITED FOR CLARITY
DL: Hello and welcome to the STRONGWILLED Podcast. We are in our season of talking about estrangement and enmeshment and setting boundaries with parents and family members who are all in on high control patriarchal hierarchical religion. We’re just in the thick of it, right?
Krispin: Yes, we are.
DL: And it's a lot. And basically, a lot of people in the United States are reassessing their relationship to toxic systems right now. And that's at the family level and at the political level. There’s a lot we could both say on the topic of authoritarianism but instead, we're focusing our energies talking about estrangement. Because estrangement is what happens in enmeshed toxic families, right?
Krispin: Right, exactly.
DL: And it's what happens when people use religious authoritarian parenting methods. But I guess a better way of saying it is that for people who are drawn to religious authoritarian parenting methods, estrangement can be what ends up happening. And, yeah, so we today we're actually going to dive into Krispin's personal story of estrangement, which you've never shared fully before.
Krispin: No, right. I mean because it’s a lot.
DL: It's like a soap opera.
Krispin: It really is. I mean, it's a whole memoir's worth, really.
So for today I am really trying to focus on the religious authoritarian parenting aspect, and it is the story of -- how did I get to this point where I stopped talking to my parents, which it's been eight years now.
DL: Yeah, I was going to say. We can do just a really quick version: It has been eight years since you've been in contact with your parents and what's interesting is that you've been a public Christian figure in those years and even wrote a book on attachment, which is interesting. And I feel like in Christian world nobody wanted you to talk about this publicly. Do you think that's true?
Krispin: I, yes, I do think that's true. I mean, part of it was that my publisher was like, we don't want to get sued.
DL: Right, and it didn't really have a place in your book anyways, but just the, the incongruous incongruity. Am I saying that word right?
Krispin: Incongruency?
DL: Because in Christian world, they're obsessed with reconciliation and forgiveness. And I don't think we have time to get into that today, but you're not in that world anymore. So, you get to do whatever you want to do and you want to talk about your personal story of estrangement. And I think we're going to need to hear a lot more of these kinds of stories. There's still so much judgment and shame heaped on adults who go no contact with their parents. And there's also this thing that's been happening because, honestly estrangement is happening everywhere.
And post-election it's only increased, right? People are setting boundaries with parents, people are going no contact or low contact and estrangement has sort of been amplified, I guess, in the cultural conversation. And what ends up happening in legacy media or mainstream media is they have these journalists or relationship experts whose basically their whole job right now is to say, did this person have enough reason to cut off their parents or not, or are they just being selfish?
And I personally find this all so distasteful. Nobody gets to judge. You never have all the facts, I will tell you that. If someone goes low or no contact with their parents, you have no clue what that person has been through and you have no right to judge. So, I'm just going to say that right now. This is not you defending yourself, this is not you explaining the story to show why you had valid reasons. This is you sharing your story to help people know that they’re not alone.
Krispin: Right, yes, and the process of what it felt like along the way. And one of the concerns I have actually is that there are a couple parts in my story that are so clearly abusive and toxic.
DL: That’s true, you have a pretty extreme story.
Krispin: I do, right, and one of the parts, we'll get to it, is that the point I went no contact was I had a lawyer saying you need to stop talking to your parents for a time to protect yourself professionally.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So, that is intense and you don't need to get to that point. I wish I had not gotten to that point. I wish that I had cut off contact earlier because I wouldn't have found myself in that situation probably. I also want to say that we can start with a trigger warning that my story is about my own sexual abuse and my family responding to that, but I also want to make it really clear that you don't have to have gone through sexual abuse to decide this is not a relationship that is healthy for me.
DL: Yeah, and I think that's really an important clarification just as much as saying I don't care what people think of you or you and I and our estrangement stories. Some parts of our stories are quite extreme and that doesn't mean that they have anything to do with your personal story, right?
Everyone gets to decide for themselves and we don't get to judge other people.
Krispin: Mm hmm.
DL: Because we truly have no clue what they've been through and what they've tried. And we just know biologically kids try really hard to make it work with their caregivers!
Krispin: Right, exactly. Yes.
DL: So let’s just have that assumption out there.
Krispin: Yes, that is the default. And anyone who's gone through this knows that most people are like, this is heartbreaking for me to get to this point. Right? And then there are also some people that are like, this isn't heartbreaking because I learned a long time ago that I had to just emotionally distance myself from my parents.
So it's either sooner or later. Right? So it is a really painful experience and I really like what you said, which is, yeah, that biological drive to maintain attachment and connection to our parents is so strong.
DL: It's so strong. Right.
Krispin: So this idea of like, well, people are just like, they're just making a big deal out of nothing . . .
DL: Or people saying “they’re hopping on a trend”, and it's like, wow, if only that was true. Um, that would make my life a lot happier, I believe. So yeah, that's what today's going to be about. Krispin, you're going to share your story. You're feeling a little nervous. I'm sure people are going to feel nervous listening in a way, because again, this is such a taboo topic.
Krispin: Right, I mean estrangement and sexual abuse.
DL: Both.
Krispin: Right?
DL: Especially for men.
Krispin: Uh huh, yes, getting ready for this I was like, why does it feel like I'm doing something wrong? I feel like I've processed so much of this and so much of it feels old. And I want to put that out there to say that you might get to a point in your life where you're like, yeah, that's sort of old news.
And also at the same time, of course, if I'm going to like spend a couple of days preparing to talk about this and focusing on it, I'm going to get triggered again. I’m going to feel dysregulated again. But I was listening to Kesha right before this – which, I loved her album, Gag Order, which is all about her not being able to talk about her abuse.
DL: She’s been important to you.
Krispin: So I'm drawing on the strength of folks that have spoken up about their abuse. Which, to put this in the framework of religious authoritarian parenting and estrangement is that within my family I spoke up about my abuse and that was a choice my dad did not want me to make, right?
That was me exercising my own individuality, my own autonomy to say, Hey, I was sexually abused by a family member and we need to talk about it. And my dad in particular, although the whole system was like, no, you just need to be quiet to maintain the peace, right? It could be about sexual abuse, but it could be about any sort of thing that you're making your own choice for yourself. The other part that I was thinking about in regards to where's the autonomy piece in this is that I did put a boundary and put distance between me and my parents when it didn't feel safe and when it became clear that they were not on my side, they were not on my team, they were not safe people. And the pushback that I got as I put that distance between me I think a lot of people will probably relate to that.
DL: Unfortunately, I will say that the connections here, and I feel like I can't make this connection as strong as I even want to, but religious authoritarian parenting methods as promoted by Dr. Dobson, John MacArthur, all these people, they create children who are ripe for abuse. And then create the systems that silence them. That happens so much, unfortunately. So, I just want to say that. And that happened to you.
Krispin: Right. I remember in our research on corporal punishment, one psychologist saying what I hear over and over and over again is kids saying I didn't tell my parents [about abuse] because I was afraid I was going to get in trouble and I was going to get spanked, which was my, that was my experience.
I remember distinctly feeling like I can't talk to my parents because whenever I do something wrong, I get spanked. And that was because I didn't realize it was abuse, of course, right? I was in elementary school. I don't have a concept for sexual abuse. I'm not going to get into the details, but I thought that it was something that I was choosing to do. So during my senior year of high school, I realized that it was abuse.
DL: By an older family member.
Krispin: Yeah, by an older family member. And, so I got up all this courage to tell my parents about it. And I was thinking all right, I just have to tell them. And they're going to kind of take the conversation from there.
Right. I'm a senior in high school when I realized it was abuse. I felt like I don't really know what this means, but I know that it is significant. So I told my parents, I remember I stayed up all night the night before, like I barely slept. And I told my dad and my mom was there too. And my dad just said, well, people change. And that was it. I expected them ask me questions, you know, and my dad was just like, well, people change.
I think I kind of walked out of the room, maybe not literally, and then my mom just looked away. And that was like the end of the conversation. Over the next couple of years. I was doing some healing, doing some therapy-ish stuff, right? I'm at a Bible college, so I'm not in therapy. I did do some therapy along the way, actually. But a lot of it was Christian ministry sort of stuff as well. But I was getting this grasp of, like, oh, yeah, I was a victim. I am a victim of sexual abuse. That is something that's true about me. I'm starting to make sense of this. And then right after we get married, the person that abused me is getting married that following summer.
So I go and tell my dad, I'm like 21 years old, and tell my dad like, Hey, I don't feel comfortable going to this person's wedding. He sexually abused me. And my dad was like, well, I understand you're not comfortable, but there's a proper way to say that you're not going to a wedding and it's a month away, so there's not enough time to like really communicate what you really need to communicate. And so you need to go, otherwise you're really going to hurt everyone's feelings
DL: Right. Like you’re going to explode the family, was basically what we were told.
Krispin: Mm hmm, right. And a lot of it was like, you're really going to hurt your aunt's feelings. And thinking back on that, I was like, yeah, so I obeyed.Right? This is me being an adult saying, I don't want to do this. And my dad's like, you have to. And I'm like, okay
DL: I can’t believe we did it!
Krispin: I know, right?
DL: Looking back,
Krispin: I know.
DL: We were under so much pressure from your parents. And they were really like, if you don't go to this wedding, you're the worst people, the worst Christians in the world.
Krispin: mm hmm, right, yeah,
DL: That was the language they use. Because they really invoked Christianity and all this religious language.
Krispin: Right, exactly, yeah, the Christian thing to do is to have healthy relationships, and healthy relationships means just maintaining relationships no matter at what cost to your own individual experience, right?
DL: So we brought my younger sister, we just shit-talked the entire time at the wedding. Do you remember this?
Krispin: yes, I do, uh huh
DL: Um, just to get through it.
Krispin: Right, yeah. So, Yeah. I think that's like one of those pictures when we think about being a young adult but feeling like you don't even have a choice to make a decision for yourself if it differs from what your parent wants, right? I mean I was upset about it and I still did it.
DL: I couldn’t believe we had to do it. I was very upset.
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: But I was trying to be supportive of you because you didn’t want to blow up your family. You needed your family.
Krispin: And we're going to do an episode later talking about this dynamic of like what it's like to be the partner of someone when they're in a toxic family and they're trying to figure it out.
DL: I’m. just saying, if people are listening and having a hard time imagining me in that situation, well, you're correct! Yeah, exactly.
Krispin: So basically a couple more years passed. Then I find out that someone else in my family was also abused at the same time I was.
DL: By the same person.
Krispin: By the same person. So, it was like, oh, this is a pattern with this person. And I was also in my Master's of Counseling at that point. And so I was like, okay, something needs to happen. We can't just ignore this. And for me, it was like if it's just me, then you know, whatever. But then hearing it happen to someone else, I got so angry. I couldn't sleep. I was just like, this is so fucked up that this happened to this person. And then, pretty quickly after, I was able to be like, Oh, yeah, it's also fucked up that it happened to me too.
Like, but it took that for me to feel angry.
DL: But also, like, it's a pattern, too.
Krispin: Yes. Mm hmm. Exactly. And so. I went to the chair of my counseling program. I was in therapy as well, but I, like, wanted her take, and she was like, well, abuse thrives in secrecy, so just make sure that all the adults in the family know. Tell the abuser's parents, tell other family members, make sure everybody knows.
I don't know why she gave me that advice.
DL: Well, it sounds like pseudo-Christian. Like everything in darkness must come to light.
Krispin: So yeah, so I contact my dad and also one of my dad's brothers and say like, all right, you know we need to tell abusers parents. We need to make sure everybody knows, let's check in with the 16 of us grandkids and let's see, did anyone else experience this?
But they were like, well, you have to do the Christian thing first, and you have to go give the abuser a chance to tell everyone, or go to counseling. And because you hold this information, you have power over him. You need to be a good Christian and make sure that you give him a chance, you know, you have to go to him directly. Just these Christian things, right?
DL: Oh, the Mathew 18 of it all or whatever, right? Can we just stop for a minute? Because, thinking about this position you are in -- you're going to these patriarchs in your family, both of them were missionaries, right, full time ministry Christians, professional Christians. You're telling them this because you don't want other people to get hurt and be abused and have the cycle pass on. And instead of them helping you, they're like, no, you, the person who was abused need to go to your abuser, confront him, and then make sure he does the right thing?
Krispin: Right. Exactly. Yes. Uh huh.
DL: What the fuck?
Krispin: Right. So I email my abuser and say, here are the options. And he writes back and is like, well, I'm a godly man and telling anybody about this would hurt them. It would hurt my family and godly men don't hurt others, so I'm not going to tell anyone. So I bring this back to my dad and my uncle, the patriarchs, and so my dad's like, yeah, I guess we should tell, you know, people, but let's wait because basically the abuser's mom, he's close to, it's my aunt.
He's like, I want to be there for her when she finds out. So, I wait whole they are out of the country. I wait for them to come back. My dad says, okay, well, let's wait until after your brother's wedding is over. I'm like, okay, let's wait. I have another conversation with him two weeks
DL: They keep moving the goalpost.
Krispin: Right, I have a conversation two weeks later and he's like, I just don't know why this is so important to you, which I mean, just think about that. Like my dad hearing me saying I was abused and I need help figuring this out. And him saying I don’t know why this is so important to you.
DL: I can’t imagine a dad saying that. Because that’s not something a dad should say.
Krispin: Right. And so what we ended up doing was, I was like, okay, you're not going to help me with this. So I'm going to go directly to these family members. So you and I set up a time to talk to my aunt and uncle and tell them that was like, I mean, we could go into that whole thing.
DL: We were trying to be good Christians. It was awful for us to do that, but we did it because of this pressure of this is how good Christians do it, which again, looking back, it was like, no, they were just trying to get us to not do it at all and using Christianity and these words like forgiveness and grace and you know, the proper protocols to do it, but they never actually wanted us to tell the truth you know?
Krispin: Right, exactly. And they were upset when we actually did it.
DL: We did exactly what they told us to do and then they were mad about that.
Krispin: Right. Yep.
DL: I'm getting heated!
Krispin: And so, right after that our first kid was born. I mean, I gotta say y'all DL was like through this the whole thing went through all this with me was such a great support. I know it was so stressful for them because they could just see this clearly.
But if you know what it's like to grow up in that it's like so hard to like face that right? It's so hard to face like my parents really are this horrible?
DL: You were trying so hard to not see how horrible they were treating you. And I was pregnant at this time.
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh. And so then, like, a week after we talked to my aunt and uncle, we have a premature baby.
DL: Well I almost died.
Krispin: Yes, and you almost died. Like, we had this traumatic birth and D.L. almost died.
DL: Our baby was born two months early. We were not prepared.
Krispin: Right, we're, we're in the hospital, you know, you were in the hospital for a week, our kid was in the hospital, in the NICU for two weeks, all this stuff happens, and really, in the following weeks and months, like, my dad just keeps on coming back to me to say you shouldn't have told your aunt.
He would say, I was going to help you. I was going to help you do it the right way. You know, she got really upset. And if you had just listened to my advice, then she wouldn't have gotten so upset. And now there wouldn't be this rift in our family. This was the message I got over and over.
DL: Yeah, fuck you, Matt! I’m sorry. I knew I was going to say that at some point in this podcast recording.
Krispin: Right. And so now I'm in this place of like, Okay, you really didn't come through for me. You didn't show up for me. You protected the abusive system, not me. I'm trying to figure out what this means and what to do. I'm in therapy. I'm starting to set some boundaries. But there's still a part of me that's like, well, maybe we can make this relationship work.
I definitely was not seeing it clearly. I was like, maybe I could do something better, but also I was sort of leaning into the idea that it’s okay to have some distance. And then my parents actually moved to the area during that time and I saw them once every three months. I was just like, I don't want to see you that much.
Um, it was just sort of like, I'm not going to fight with you anymore to convince you that this is important to me. And I don't know what to say now, because my thing was, like, I want you to tell the family members, and now they know, but I don't know what to, I don't know what to say, like, oh, if you do this, things will be better, because it's just sort of like, you blew it. And you're not taking accountability for that. But my dad is really upset about the distance. So he won't just own it -- yes, I get it, you're putting distance between us because you asked for my help around abuse, and then I just dismissed it. Of course he's not going to do that. But like, that is one route to healing is saying, hey, I messed up, I apologize. How do we rebuild trust?
DL: Instead he’s just pissed at you for the optics of it. Right. Because he doesn't seem to enjoy being around you. No. So why is he so mad that you only hang out with him every three months?
Krispin: Which I think is, that is the religious authoritarian parenting of it, right? Is this pressure to have a good family that looks good from the outside.
DL: Yeah, I eventually realized it was all about the optics for him. Because I’m like, he doesn't care about you. He doesn't ask about you, he doesn't, and when you try and share, he just dismisses and belittles it, you know?
Krispin: Whether it's personal or like politics or whatever
DL: Your mom was different, but with your dad, it was like, You don't even like Krispin. And who wouldn’t like you? You're so freaking likeable!
Krispin: Yeah. Yeah. And every time we met, his anxiety wasabout the distance. It was about his anxiety and shame around the fact that his kid does not want to spend time around him.
DL: Well we now know what it was, though. It was anger.
Krispin: Right. Yes. Mm hmm. Right. And these conversations would happen over and over again where I would be like I don't feel comfortable spending time with you because it feels like you didn't show up for me. And he would be like well you know I've been thinking lately about like the lenses that people have and the glasses they have and I read this Christian counseling book and when people have glasses he was like, you know, chuckling, like if people have shit-colored glasses then they just look back on things and they see them negatively. So basically me saying “I don't trust you” --
DL: He said you have shit glasses on?
Krispin: Yes, he did. And he tried to laugh about it.
DL: Oh my god
Krispin: And the other thinghe did was he was like I was reading this article the other day about couples therapy. You're a therapist like you understand this He was like the article said that sometimes couples go into couples counseling and they just talk about their problems. And sometimes all they need is just to have a game night.
I'm like, who wrote this article? Someone who really wants to dismiss actual problems?
DL: Someone who’s a little bit too into games if you ask me.
Krispin: Right.Yes. So he's like, I think that's us. Like, we just need to stop talking about the problems and spend more time together.
DL: That's what your family loved. I found it so confusing because your family wanted to hang out all the time and not talk about anything.
Krispin: Mm-Hmm.
DL: And just play games or listen to your dad complain. Does that make sense? So I was like, why are we doing this? I don't want to play nerds again and I don't want to just listen to your dad shit talk his coworkers anymore. That was it.
Krispin: Yep. Mm hmm. Yeah. Another time he was like, I've been reading this book called The Four Agreements. And it says be impeccable with your word, don't take things personally, don't make assumptions, always do your best. And he's like, you're just making a lot of assumptions about me and I've always done my best and you just need to accept that.
DL: He’s totally the epitome of the person who reads the self-help books and weaponizes them.
Krispin: Yes, exactly. And I would pull away from not just him, but other family members, obviously. I'm like, I don't want to go to the family reunion. And he's told me you know, I've been thinking about how important family is and how these decisions we make.
DL: Right?
Krispin: Right? You know, have lasting consequences. I mean, I remember one time I met him at Starbucks and he raised his voice in Starbucks and was just like, you know, just so upset with me that I talked to my aunt about the abuse. Um, so yeah, this was this whole season of me putting distance, but I would notice and say things like “Dad it feels like you're trying to tell me when you say like don't take things personally you're trying to tell me just like don't be hurt by these hurtful things I did.”
And I would pick up on his anger, right? I could feel it and then I would shut down and during these like conversations. And when we moved out of state they would still visit us and for the two or three days before and two or three days after a visit, my body felt so bad. And for you, you were like, you are not yourself. You're so shut down. You're just like a ghost of a person, right?
DL: It was awful and I think I just want to zoom out just for a minute and say that I'm wondering if people listening also have this experience because it's taken me so long to get here but especially when you grow up in the world of like white evangelicalism right there's so much projection of this image of good, kind, loving men.
When in reality, they're very angry, insecure, complex human beings. And I think the part that gets so confusing is when they are like no no no no no. I’m not angry. I'm just disappointed you didn't follow Matthew 18. That's all. You know? And then when you take a step back, you're like, Oh no, you're just a shithead enabler in an abusive system that is desperate to be perceived as good.
And those kind of people really need people in your life to mirror back to you that you're good and wise and not angry when that's not true! You know? So I'm like, this has happened to me, people in my own life, including my own dad, and for you, it's just sort of crazy-making to be in these worlds where you can't acknowledge when men have anger issues and when men enable abusive systems. Like, you’re not supposed to say that because they’re the patriarchs.
Krispin: Mm hmm. Right. And working in therapy during this time, I was like, I just don't get it. I should be able to show up and use my words and set boundaries, but why is it that I just like melt, you know? And it was like, oh yeah, it’s because my dad gets angry and this was how he looked before I was spanked. This is how he looked when he would raise his voice when I was a kid, right? My nervous system is oriented to keep yourself safe by making sure dad doesn't get mad. And all of those conversations of him trying to have these talks about how our relationship could get better by me reassessing things, not by him reassessing things.
DL: No no no
Krispin: So I would get really get dysregulated because he would get angry because I wouldn't just agree with him. And then I would end up just agreeing with him to keep myself safe in that situation.
DL: Yeah, one of the weirdest things for me. Sorry, maybe I should save this for the partner episode. But your dad would always try to get you away from me to talk to you. Because, you would just, you wouldn't fold, but you would fold a lot more if I wasn’t there. Because I was an outsider to the system, so I was just like, Wait, what are you saying?
So when he got you to agree to go to your abuser’s wedding, I wasn't there. You know what I mean? And then once you agreed, he's like, we can't back out now. It's just shit like that. Looking back, I'm like, Whoa.
Krispin: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah! Exactly.
DL: So that's why with the setting boundaries stuff, it's just kind of hard. It's like, your dad knew your weaknesses and had been exploiting them since childhood. So yeah, it was hard to set boundaries.
Krispin: Yeah. Exactly. So hard. I found this journal entry from this time that really stands out to me. This was four years after I talked to my aunt. So this is where I am at with my dad and him being in this place of trying to figure out how to close the distance between us without him having to take any accountability.
Right. So we're walking around the mall and I'm like, all right, I'm going to use my skills. I'm going to ground myself. I'm going to look around at my surroundings instead of looking at my dad. I'm going to sort of gray rock him, just, you know not agree to things I don't agree. But just say things like oh I'll have to think about that or whatever, right?
DL: We’re doing the whole thing of meeting in public places now and all of that.
Krispin: Right, yeah, we're at we're at the mall. And we're actually in Barnes & Noble and I am alone with him and I sort of knew I was like, okay This is the pattern but this time I'm prepared and I was.
So I'm alone in Barnes and Noble. You're with our, you know, we had one kid at that time, and my mom and my sister are somewhere else with you.
And so my dad says, it was brave what you did. And I'm like, what, where is this coming from, and why is this positive? And he was like, I'm glad that you told your aunt about the abuse, for your own healing. And I was like, okay, like just in the moment, why are you praising me for this?
And then he says, but you really could have done it better. Right? And I'm like, okay, this is you, trying to concede something and making it about me and my healing. Which, maybe he was reading some books or something about kids that are like, they have to do it for themselves. Right? So I was like, well, what did you think I did wrong? What could I have done better? And he's like, no, no, I'm not saying you did anything wrong, but you could have done it better if you knew more what you wanted out of it. And I just see the anger come up in his face.
And he was like, you know, you just didn't get wise counsel at that time. And your aunt felt more defensive than she wanted to be.And now it's created this rupture. I mean, what are you expecting from a 23 year old that's trying to navigate abuse in an abusive system? But then he was like, when you put up those strict boundaries, like when we lived in Portland right, it just would have been so much more helpful for you to say, this is what you want and this is why I'm doing it. Like, I think it just would have been more healthy for you.
And I was like, I know that was hurtful. And he was like, no, no, this isn't about me at all. Like, it's just, it would have helped with your healing if you could have just told us directly.
DL: I love that you wrote all this down. It’s wild to me. I mean that does seem like something he would say, but wow.
Krispin: Uh huh, right. I know, I remember writing this because we were visiting Portland, we were living in Minneapolis, and I wrote this on the plane going back. So I was like, okay, well, while we're on the topic of the cousin who abused me, I'm still concerned about the kids in his life. And I would like to think that if you had concerns about him abusing kids, you would make the call. And my dad was like, well, of course I would. Like, why would you make that assumption?
And I was like, because it seems like you've protected him in the past. And then he was like, well, you know, if anyone needed to make the call, it would need to be you, because you were the one that was abused. And I was like no, you could just call and say this is my nephew. He abused my son. I'm making a report. Right. And then you had joined up with us at this point. And my dad's like, well, I know that you could make the call cause you're really strong. And you jumped in and you're like, that strength has come at a cost. Like you're so mad.
DL: I was saying that your strength was very hard-earned.
Krispin: Right, exactly. And my dad is like switches and he has this like tender voice where he says like Krispin you've done enough. But you pointed out later. He's just saying like stop. Stop doing things, stop talking,
DL: *screams into the void* Aaarrrgh!
Krispin: So, then I'm recognizing this pattern where he keeps on bringing up our relationship and these old things over and over again, but then he's mad because I won't concede to his point of view. So I said, ‘I'm starting to look forward to this, like, conversation we have every time we get together,’ which was sarcastic.
DL: You were being sassy?
Krispin: Yeah, I was being sassy. And then he starts crying, which my dad never cries, and he's like, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have brought this up, I'm sorry.
DL: It’s kind of the trope of like, oh, I’m the worst parent ever. I’m crying now take care of me.
Krispin: Right, exactly. And so
DL: Which happens, unfortunately, is what a lot os parents like this do when confronted with their behavior.
Krispin: So then it was like, all right, it's time to go to lunch at this restaurant nearby. And I remember seeing my dad's face as we pulled up in the car,
DL: Because he was in a separate car.
Krispin: Yeah, in a separate car, and it was full of rage. And we went in and our kid was like four years old at that point and was like, I want to sit by grandpa. And my dad just like ignored them and treated them like he treated me.
DL: He didn’t talk to them. H gave them the silent treatment.
Krispin: Right, exactly. And so I think something really shifted there. That was a season of just like noticing this pattern of like, I put up distance, and my dad's like, what's wrong? This doesn't feel good, right? It doesn't look good. And then wanting to talk it through, but like, not actually being curious at all about my experience or what I would need. And just invalidating me at every turn.
DL: I mean this came from you, but it was also for me, it's just like, this person is actively seeking like jobs with children in them. So it was intense.
Krispin: Right. The person who abused me.
DL: I was like, I know we can't get into that. I just need to put that out here. We did a lot, we did so much to ensure the protection of other kids and it was so disturbing how most of the adults in your family did nothing. We did everything we could.
Krispin: Right. A family full of educators who are all mandatory reporters. like, like librarians, nurses, principles. Who did nothing.
DL: So that's just an extra layer to what's happening in these four years.
Krispin: Yes. Right. And I just want to say like throughout all of this, there's this idea that this feels really bad. Should I just cut them off? Should I not? Is there a way for me to do it differently so that this relationship can work?
And I think that's like the big question for a lot of people, right? Is my parent an unhealthy person? And if so how can I stand in the gap to make this work? And then you realize that sometimes it can't work. So there were six years of this kind of this back and forth. And I was really getting sick of it.
DL: It was very stressful.
Krispin: It was. It was very stressful. And then, what was hard is we moved back to Oregon, so then there was more contact with them.
DL: Yeah. Then cousins and everybody started pressuring you to hang out. And again, I just couldn’t understand it. I was like, they don’t act like they even like you, so why is everyone coming out of the woodwork to pressure you to go hang out with them?
Krispin: Exactly. Mm hmm, right, so. So yeah, I just was hanging out in that place for quite a while. And then this next part is sort of like what led to the actual cut off. A couple of years after the Barnes and Noble incident . . . let's just say like shit went down. I make a report on my abuser and got some retaliation because of that. I had to hire a lawyer and the details are messy, and my dad called and was like, if you wouldn't have called and made that complaint none of this would have happened. Right? So just that same line of like, you're the problem for speaking up.
DL: So, no support for you when you were experiencing this legal repercussions for trying to do the right thing and ensure no other kids get abused, right? That's literally what you're doing. And the abusive family system's was like, oh, Krispin's just making a fuss. And nobody seemed to care about kids in this entire thing at all. Can I just say that?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh. Yeah. I mean, that's the story over and over is me being the problem.
DL: They don't care about children being harmed. They care about the family system being protected. Does that make sense?
Krispin: And they don't even care about the abuser. They care about His parents and their feelings.
DL: And hanging out with them at Thanksgiving.
Krispin: Right, so I mean it really is it's just the worst. But that was one of the last conversations I had with my dad. And I talked to my mom a little bit after that and she was much more supportive but she was in between these two worlds. I don't want to say caught between these two worlds because I don't think that's true.
But she would talk to me and be understanding and then she would sort of be like, Well, so and so said this about you, but I don't think it's true, but can you explain why it's not true, right? Like, like it kind of this like dynamic of like, right?
Like so and so thinks you're really vengeful and I don't think that you're vengeful, but could you like, you know, explain to me why you’re not. That that was the feel of it.
DL: That’s so sad. She’s your mom, she should know that you don’t have a vengeful bone in your body.
Krispin: Exactly, so the lawyer was like you need to stop talking to your parents to protect yourself for
DL: Because they were feeding information back.
Krispin: Right. So basically in order to protect yourself during this process until this thing gets resolved, please don't talk to them.
DL: By the way, we had zero money. We just had our second kid. Or about to, right? No, we just had our second kid. And I almost died again.
Krispin: I was so stressful.
DL: Not only did your family not support us, they were the biggest source of stress in our lives. And we had a lot of stress. So I'm like, if they're the biggest source of stress, with everything else was going on in our lives, that's saying something. If you ask me.
Krispin: Right, exactly. Oh my gosh, yes. So the break lasted a few months, but then it was sort of like, do I really want to go back to like talking to my parents? It was really, really hard with my mom because I've always had a close relationship with my mom, but it just became clear that I could not have a relationship with her that felt good when she was so connected to all of these people and I would say she also enabled it.
DL: Oh, totally. And that was a hard pill to swallow.
Krispin: Yes, right.
DL: Because you really needed her to be good.
Krispin: yes. Yeah,
DL: And she wasn’t a good mom to you, when you really needed a mom. I’m sorry.
Krispin: No, it's really true. It's like yeah, it's just really sad.
Krispin: That's what was really hard was like here are these people that I love, and I want a relationship with them and the idea of never talking to them again is really painful, there's so much grief, and then there's this piece of like, I remember feeling that if my parents died in a car accident, my life would pause.
My life would pause, and people would be like, oh my god, your parents died.
DL: Yeah. You get to have a funeral for that relationship.
Krispin: Right.
DL: For being an orphan. Do you know what I mean?
Krispin: Yes. So instead it was like go to work take care of your two kids.
DL: And your partner who has severe depression, who forces you to live in low-income housing with refugees.
Krispin: Uh huh. Right. So there was, yeah, a lot of pain there. Um, and I remember doing some really great therapy during that time. And I remember something that just solidified it for me was, there's this scene in Rogue One where
DL: Wow, I was not expecting this! But okay, here we go.
Krispin: I know. Where the parents hide their kid before the empire comes. The empire comes and kills the parents. And then there's this little kid that's just, like, all alone in the world. And that was the feeling that came up, you know?
And through therapy, I was able to recognize, that you're not alone in the world. This is really painful and scary, but you actually have people that really like you and love you and are there for you. And so during that time it was really helpful to think of friends that I've had for a long time, to think of you. I listened to Taylor Swift's Red album over and because I’m like, there aren't breakup albums for your parents.
DL: Is that why you’re wearing a red shirt right now?
Krispin: Yes, probably. Um, and that was just like, really. You know, a lot of what I did, but I want to also talk about this ruminating thing because I was a Christian pacifist, I believed in reconciliation. God is reconciling all things like God loves me unconditionally.
DL: Yeah, so I should love my parents unconditionally.
Krispin: So, right, and this big anxiety that would come up, which was if I cut off my parents, then what do I expect for myself? I had a lot of shame at that time, I had this idea in my brain that you're a really messed up person, and the only reason that people love you is because they love you unconditionally.
DL: That’s so devastating to think about! I didn’t even know that. Wow.
Krispin: yeah. And so it was this loop and then I would read these pacifist books that are like you can't say that you forgive someone and not continue in a relationship with them and you need to you know
DL: I mean, even Martin Luther King Jr. I remember reading that a lot.
Krispin: I was reading that and I would get stuck on what's my dad's trauma that he shows up this way, and, It just was it one thing that came up for me a lot was like this feeling like I need to put it in their hands. I need to say Hey, here's what I need from a relationship from you if you can't do this, then I don't want to talk to you. And that sounds like it makes sense, but sometimes you can't do that in a relationship.
DL: Yeah, you were still trying to play by some rules. Does that make sesnse?
Krispin: Right, I want to feel loved and supported by you, and if I don't, then I don't want this relationship. But my dad was always like, well, you need to tell us what to do. If you tell us something specific to do, we'll do it. Right? So,
DL: But anyone who works with toxic family systems, right, it's like, they will tell you it doesn't do any good. Everybody wants to write a letter to their parents, right?
DL: And it's like, you totally can.
Krispin: Right.
DL: But it's literally only for you because if you send that, that just gives them more ammunition. That gives them more things to freak out about. Like, does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes, exactly, right, because I mean, one of the things was like, Hey, you, every, every holiday and every summer you spend time with the parents of the person that abused me. And just act like it's no big deal. And protect that relationship over your relationship with me. And they're like, well, what do you want me to do? Are you telling us you want us to cut these people out of our lives? And that puts me in a position of like, I'm the bad guy. I'm saying, yes, you have to do this. And I don't want you to cut these people out of your lives. I want you to be the kind of parents that are like,
DL: We will make this uncomfortable.
Krispin: Yeah, my mom would be like, well we hang out with them, but don't worry, we don't talk about you. And I'm like, I want you to talk about me. I want you to be like, hey, there's a rift here. Your son abused our son. We can't pretend like that didn't happen and we need to talk through it. So, but I think people get really stuck on that a lot.
Like whether it's like, you know, it's kind of this thing. I think people will say, you know, I don't want my parents to be transphobic, but it's like. You can control them not saying transphobic things around, or not control, but you can say, I don't want you to say transphobic things around me. But like, how do you say to someone like, Hey, I want you to do this thing that's internal, right?
DL: Don’t tell my story for me!
Krispin: Do you know what I mean? That's the thing, I think a lot of people will say like, I've worked with so many clients through the years, where they're like my parent treats me horribly, they do this and that, and they, you know, they call me and they insult me and stuff, and they've drunk, they've been an alcoholic their whole life, so I need to write a letter to them to say they need to stop drinking. And I'm like, drinking is one part of this, but like, if you are a person that verbally abuses your kids, you can't say, alright, here are the rules, now follow these rules.
Like, that is a personality thing. And I'm not saying people can't change, but that requires someone to say something like, I realize that I've really mistreated you and I'm going to go to therapy to figure that out so that I don't mistreat you anymore. And I am willing to go at a pace to rebuild trust with you that makes sense for you. Right.
Which is really different than like when people say well, I want to tell my parent to go to therapy. I'm like, okay, well, they'll go to therapy and they'll be like, all right, I went to therapy. So now you have to come to family reunion.
I had a family member sit down with me one time and say, I understand this, you know, thing about this person that abused you and how you don't want to go to family reunions with him. But if we get a psychological evaluation to say whether or not he's currently abusing people, and he's not, then you have an obligation to come. I'm going to cut that.
DL: No, leave it! I mean, that’s the level of delusion these systems are operating under!
Krispin: yes,
DL: You have to go, then!
Krispin: Yeah, you, he's like, as a Christian, cause this was back in my pacifist days, as a Christian, you have to do your part to mend the relationship.
DL: To do your part to obey the rules. They love a patriarchal, high control, authoritarian religion. And they used that a lot to try to control us and they were really upset when it didn't work, because that's what the whole system was supposed to produce, right? Now the weird thing is, it worked for like everybody else, because I'm like, none of these people seem to be having that great of a time, if you ask me.
Krispin: Right, mhm.
DL: And yet we were the first ones to not want to go to a family gathering? Now I think this is happening across homes right now. People are starting to be like, wait a minute, it's quite miserable and nobody's enjoying themselves, but to keep up the appearance, right, keep up the tradition or whatever, we all go. And it sucks to be the first one to be like, Actually, I'm going to make other plans.
Actually, I'm not going to keep going. You know, people freak the frick out, as we know. But this is a normal part of just being a human. Systems change. Family systems morph and grow and, and that kind of pressure to keep it going is very odd and very unhealthy.
Krispin: I just want to I just want to mention that like, I definitely had some OCD about it and really got stuck in that in like, you know, a healthy relationship is really clear and direct.
DL: A Christian response, a Christian pacifist response would be this and this.
Krispin: Right, yeah, and just realizing if the people on the other end are not healthy people, then you sharing your concerns is not going to work. And I wish that I had been able to recognize that much sooner.
DL: Yeah, and looking back, I see how Christianity kept you kind of running on this wheel with your family and just basically so much stress, so much trauma, so much abuse heaped on you for what? For nothing. Cause they ended up never changing.
Krispin: Right, Uh huh. Yep.
DL: Ever! Does that make sense? They never once proved that they cared about kids. That they cared about you. And so I think about all those years and how much of your mental space was going to them. Now when are you going to talk about them showing up at your work and stuff? Because this is the part of estrangement stories that is never just cut and dry. When people are like this, when you try and set boundaries and they respond very poorly, which is what happened.
Krispin: Yes. So, for one thing I want to say, I wrote a whole album during this process.
DL: Yep! You sure did!
Krispin: I wrote 12 songs, which was really helpful for me. And what was really helpful about that process was, like, I would come across little things that felt really true to me and I'd put it in a song. And then I could sing it to myself.
And so that was really helpful. Just things about like you deserve better and like your parents are never going to change or like, you know, you can't hold your breath waiting for them to change. Um, but yeah, I told my mom, like, Hey, I want to have a relationship with you, would you consider going to a counselor who knows about abusive family So she did. It was a Christian counselor.
DL: Okay. Great *sarcasm*
Krispin: I met up with her a little bit after that and she was like, yeah, the counselor went over with these dynamics with me about these dynamics of abusive family systems. She was like, but, you know, I think that most families have these things. So, you know, that just to me was like, oh.
DL: Maybe every family she knows does! You know?
Krispin: I mentioned this in the last episode that this was the time where she was like, yeah, our family has these things, but what are you going to do?
Just like not talk to your family the rest of your life. And I was like, Yeah, mom like until things feel safe again, I'm not going to. And she was just like shocked. She was really sad.
DL: Wow.
Krispin: So that was like, you know a year but then like in, let's see, then two years after I'd cut off contact things were feeling smooth things were feeling okay. And I realized like, this isn't everyone's experience. I don't
DL: Your nervous system finally started to calm down!
Krispin: Uh huh. My parents were living out of state at that time. And I get to the end of my therapy day, I'm at my therapy office on the fourth floor. I walk out to our tiny waiting room and I'm like. Wait, do I have another client? These people look familiar. I was ready to like head out for the day, but I recognize this person. Is it one of my clients? No, it's my parents. It was one of those things where it's like, I thought you were in another state.
DL: Yeah. How did they figure out where you worked?
Krispin: I don't know how they foundme, I mean, that's easy. You just Google my name.
DL: Okay.
Krispin: Our receptionist was a lovely person and was like, Hey, surprise, your parents called today and they said they wanted to surprise you at the end of your day.
DL: Ohhhh
Krispin: Right? Of course, receptionist has no idea.
DL: I wonder what your face looked like.
Krispin: So I was like. give me a moment, I'll be right back, was what I told them. I went,
DL: Oh, so demure, wow.
Krispin: I went and talked to another therapist friend, and was just like. Dude, my parents just showed up. I have not talked to them in two years. I'm just, you know, pretty upset. And he was just sort of like, oh man, that sounds hard.
But I gathered myself. And I go back to the waiting room and I'm like, all right, come back to my office.
DL: Wow
Krispin: And of course I'm very dysregulated, but
DL: I’m freaking out just hearing this.
Krispin: Yes, so I go back and I just have them sit on my couples therapy couch and I sit across from them and I think I say, what brings you in today?
DL: Aaah! You did not!
Krispin: I did not say that, but I was sort of just like, all right, like, why are you here? And my dad was like, we're done with this. This you not talking to us thing anymore. And I'm like,
DL: Oh my god
Krispin: I just kind of listened, and he was like, we're here for the weekend. And we really want you to consider like meeting us to talk through And I was like I'll think about it.
DL: You’re just trying to get out of this alive.
Krispin: Right exactly. And so and you know, he's mad that I'm not agreeing. That's the thing is
DL: They’re trying to force you into this when I’m not there.
Krispin: Yes, right. I mean the thing is like I have texted with my mom and emailed with them over these years, right? So like if they're like, hey
DL: So we would call that low-contact with your mom.
Krispin: Right. Yes. Well, I mean I would Yes, I would say, I would, I would say it's, I think you can be no contact and still get texts from your mom that say like, Hey, grandma just got a cancer diagnosis.
DL: Well you didn’t block her or anything.
Krispin: I didn't, right. Yes. But it was very clear. Like we are not having a conversation. You can send me family updates and that is it.
So, but all that to say, like they knew that they could have contacted me and said, do you want to meet? So there's a power move there to show up at my work. Um, and my dad says we are not responsible for your healing. Basically, he's like, you're still healing, but that's not our problem. You need to heal faster, and the fact that you're not healed doesn't mean that we shouldn't be allowed to talk to you. So it makes it just my problem, right? I'm the unhealed one.
DL: I want to scream.
Krispin: He's said, I want to talk through it and I said, okay, I'll email you, I let them go. And then I went home. I don't know if I did it right away, but I wrote an email to my dad and I said, Please do not approach me without prior notice again. I imagine that you were making a gesture of wanting reconciliation, but it was very unsettling. You can always email me. Um, and then I said, you mentioned my healing. I wanted to get your perspective on what healing from an intrafamilial sexual abuse looks like, so sexual abuse within a family. What does a healed person look like internally, emotional experience, thoughts, views of the world, and externally, you know, what kind of behavior, relationships with others, boundaries in the family, etc.
I think it'd be helpful to hear your perspective so that I have a sense of what you'd expect a hopeful future to look like. Love, Krispin.
And he did not email back. And, that's the last contact that I've had with my dad. But I was just like, okay, you want
DL: So I'm mad that you wrote that email.
Krispin: Yeah? I feel good about it. Yes,
DL: I mean, of course you feel good because you come across as this great person, but I'm like, I'm so over that narrative. That you have to be that good. Mm-Hmm. to be worthy of anything. I'm just like, fuck that.
Krispin: That's true. And, right. Totally. And I want to totally agree with that.
DL: I just want to make sure people listening know you don't have to write an email like that, you know. It's very you, it's very you to do that, that's who you are, but you're still trying to have a conversation with this man who has shown you one billion times who he is.
Krispin: Mm hmm. That he is not giving a good faith effort. Right. Yes. And that's true. And I could have,
DL: I'm sad for you, you still gave your dad a chance to the very end, to the very end.
Krispin: And I mean, that just felt like I was just winging it. I don't think, it wasn't like I had a lot of thought, but I wish that, yeah, I wish I'd done it sooner and also I could have just seen them show up at my work and turn around and go back and
DL: When are we going to talk about what your uncle did to me?
Krispin: I know.
DL: Should we talk about that in the partner thing?
Krispin: Yes we should. Uh, no, we can, we can talk about that now, which I think is actually relevant to the fact that my parents just continue to hang out with them.
DL: Yeah. Well, I don’t know, is this a good time to talk about it? Cause like your family’s like, wild. Right? So when my book came out I had the dream happen where I got to go to Powell's Books. My name was on the marquee. You know, I had a book reading and a signing. And I guess your uncle saw my name on there or something but he decided to come crash it and while I was reading and it was a packed house.
Krispin: And my uncle is like 6’8”?
DL: A very tall man. Very large. And he stood directly in my line of sight, and folded his arms and glared at me the entire time to intimidate me.
Krispin: And started pacing
DL: And started pacing. You were freaking out. I was freaking out. We had to like sort of get him removed from the place.
Krispin: Our, a family friend, who's this boomer woman who's a therapist who works with like, um, high acuity clients, like very dramatic clients for lack of a better word, like went and talked to him and kicked him out.
DL: Yes. Yeah. And so that was just like one example of like the intimidation tactics that your family used. Like they were kind of obsessed with us. And it was not a fun time. Let me tell you. I feel like they just ruined so much of those years for us and our marriage and our family and even my career.
Krispin: Mm hmm. Yes, right. Here's the thing that I want to end on. Related to that. Which is, um, I was still struggling through this, you know, still struggling through, like, do I, should I reach out to them, blah, blah, blah. And I had this friend, a fairly conservative Christian boomer guy, with kids my age, sons my age. Um, and I was asking him about it, like, what’s your advice.
He's like, sure, you could like invest, you know, your energy in that relationship with your parents. He's like, but your partner needs you, your kids need you, and your clients need you. And I would add this, you need you. And he was like, the amount of emotional dysregulation that your parents bring into your life, you have to account for that.
You have to recognize that, like, not in a shaming way, but like a validating way. If you feel these ways, right, you have to ask yourself that question: do you want to give this emotional energy to this relationship at the cost of your mental health, at the cost of showing up for the other people in your life?
And that was really helpful for me. And actually I was sort of like, yeah, maybe I'll fix this on later down the road. But right now is not the time. And it really does, they just, they take so much from me. And it's okay for, what he was saying is like, it's okay for you to make a decision about what's best for you and the people you care about.
DL: So that's, I guess that's maybe how we should wrap this up. As people possibly are staring down, setting boundaries and, and estrangement with family members who have just shown these patterns of years and years and years of this type of behavior, you know, how has it been for you? Like how has it, have you had more time to invest in yourself and people you care about?
Krispin: Oh, yeah, sorry, I thought you were, um
DL: No, that was a question.
Krispin: I thought you were saying for people to reflect on. Definitely. Yeah, definitely.
DL: You cried a bunch in the beginning.
Krispin: Mm-hm, right. But it really helped me recognize and focus on like, oh, where are relationships where people like me, where people are not putting pressure on me, um, getting to this point of, you know.
DL: Where they're interested in you and your inner world.
Krispin: Mm hm. Right. Exactly. And really this was a path of me starting to be able to trust my own gut and my own intuition and pay attention to my own emotions.
DL: So they were always trying to get you to disregard that. Which is not a fun way to live at all.
Krispin: So yeah, I mean, it really has been, it was really hard. I cried a lot. I listened to a lot of Taylor Swift, wrote a lot of songs. And then I got to this point where I was like, I don't need to write any more music. Actually I took a break from music for a while because I was like, that was really painful. But life on the other side is actually much better.
DL: It is, you're in the bad dad club, and sometimes it's just kind of nice to have the bad dad out of the picture, you know?
Krispin: Mm hm. Exactly. I mean, yeah, it was, it was really relieving. And once I could move through the guilt, which of course the guilt comes up of, you know, you're abandoning your parents, blah, blah, blah. But when you move through that and get into this point of like, oh I can breathe again, you know, or for the first time.
DL: And we can just say, you are now officially not the only person estranged from your parents in your family. So this is, you know, I think it’s interesting. You’re not just the lone black sheep.
Krispin: No, and that's the thing is like, I want to reiterate that part about, uh, for me, it was about sexual abuse, but I literally have a sibling where it was not about that at all. It was just about my dad's inability to have healthy relationships with others.
DL: And just being a huge bummer. An angry bummer. It can be as simple as that, actually, you know?
Krispin: And I just want to say again, DL has just like been amazing through it all, been so supportive and we will be doing an episode about partners.
DL: This is why I almost died twice in childbirth because of your family. I'm just now making this connection. I'm blaming them! No, I’m kidding. But it is kind of weird
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: how the tension was ramped up both times about that.
Krispin: Right. Oh my gosh. Yes. Yeah. And so, yeah, I, I'm really glad that I made that decision and, and I think I said this before last episode, but one thing that I think is really important about making this decision is like, you don't have to make the decision forever.
You can decide like, yeah, this isn't working for me. I need space. And for me, it was a lot of grieving. Um, but it was, it wasn't automatically like, oh, I'm done forever. It's like, oh, this feels a lot better to not have you in my life. And I'm going to continue to evaluate that.
DL: I'm just going to say, as your partner, as somebody has been with you, not since right from the beginning when you started to recognize that you had experienced abuse, but, you know, I met you not too long after that.
Krispin: Pretty darn close. I mean literally like a year and a half later.
DL: And I will say, the movie that you probably most identify with is The Perks of Being a Wallflower, if anybody's watched that.
Krispin: Mm hm
DL: That's kind of how you were when I, when I met you. Right.Both of us actually have a lot of empathy for our parents and can see how they were abused as kids, can see their trauma.
But what's been so fascinating for me is that no longer lets people off the hook for me because I know you and I know what you've experienced I know the trauma you've experienced and I see how you operate in the world and you do not pass that trauma on to other people. You are dealing with it.
You're feeling all the deeply uncomfortable feelings. You're setting boundaries. You're doing the work. You're showing up for people. It's kind of sad because it took you a really long time to show for yourself you were like much more comfortable showing up for me or our kids or whatever, but just like, yeah, you are the one who, who's thrown the wrench in that belief I had, where it's like, well, if somebody grows up with shitty parents or a shitty childhood or experiences abuse, like, it just kind of makes sense that they just spew that onto others.
And it's like, no! Krispin didn't do that!
Krispin: Mm hm. That's something we talk about in the therapist community a lot is because we, you know, as therapists, know so many people who went through shitty things that have not, that do not take it out on others.
DL: It's kind of like how your mom's like, well, every family is abusive, has abusive family systems. Like, that's so sad. That's probably because that's literally everyone she knows because she's deeply ensconced in white evangelicalism. So to tie it back to this, right, I think these systems of abuse are] so normalized and there's so much pressure as good Christian families. This is just such an extra layer that so many have to deal with, right? To get through.
Wow, Krispin.
Krispin: I know. And like D.L. led with, I've never talked publicly about all of this. And as we said, this is just focusing on the family. Focusing on the family dynamics part. We together have done taking a lot of steps to try to keep what happened to me from happening to other people. And that's a whole other story.
But, the family dynamic part, for me actually was the biggest thing. In my song lyrics, one of the things that I said was like, it's not about what happened then, it's about what's happening now. Yeah, I was abused and that was a big deal, but it's more about the fact that you cannot handle me even talking about it, and you can't support me, you can't listen to me, and you can't let me make my own decisions as a survivor of abuse about how I want to interact in this system and interact with my abuser.
DL: Yeah. And, your dad in particular believed he had a right to control you. Your whole life. So, makes sense why you had to break that off. And all that.
Well, on that happy note, Estrangement is happening to so many people, and I hope you don't judge those who are going through it, but instead you have so much empathy and compassion for the amount of grief and, just feelings people have had to feel to get to that point, right?
It's the people who repress feelings who keep the unhealthy systems going, right? And those who don't repress it's like we end up becoming the villains and the scapegoats or whatever. But it's like, you kind of see the people they like in those systems. I'm like, well, I guess I'm okay being a villain. You know?
Krispin: Yes, I mean I love embracing the black sheep role, right, because black sheep tell the truth. But it's been hard.
DL: It’s been hard. Eight years. It's possible. You can lead a happy fulfilling life and have a lot more energy for the things you want to invest on the other side.
Krispin: Yeah, really it's sort of like eight years before and eight years after, and the eight years after have been much better than the eight years of trying to make it work as an adult.
DL: Well, y'all, thanks for listening. We'll be back next time where I'll talk a bit about my story and I don't know how much I want to share, you know? I might not share that much and that's okay too, because everybody's at a different place, but I feel like this really was time for you to share, Krispin and, you have so much compassion for people, and you know that this is not a decision anyone takes lightly.
You literally have had to walk through attachment trauma, right, to get on the other side of this. So thanks for listening, thanks so much for supporting us. If you appreciate our work, if you appreciate all the incredible work Krispin's put into this, you can support us on Patreon for $4 a month, or you can support our Substack project.
We're going to continue to make space for these conversations that are really hard to have. It's hard for you to have it! I can tell! So I'm like, you need to take care of yourself the rest of the day, right?
Krispin: Yes. I am going to. That is the plan.
DL: You know what's funny is Fern, our dog, our corgi, is like, just staring at you this whole time is like, very much focused on you because for once, you're more dysregulated than me! So our little therapy dog will hang out with you today, Krispin!
Krispin: She also probably was like, I know tears are salty, I want some of those. But even before we were recording, she was coming up and looking into my face over and over. It was very sweet. Thank you all so much for listening. And, um, yeah, for this space to share my story. I really appreciate it and just really hope that, um, everyone's story is different, but I do hope that in hearing it, there might be some aspects where people feel less alone.
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