DL's Story of Estrangement

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DL's Story of Estrangement

TW/CW: denial of structural racism in the US, COVID denial / death, transphobia, homophobia, fatphobia. 

Krispin: Hello, listeners and welcome to the STRONGWILLED podcast. We wanted to take a minute to say thank you so much for listening. We've gotten so many listens over the last couple of months, double our usual listener numbers. We’re just really grateful for you who are listening, or have started to listen, or are sharing with people you know. We’re really grateful for your support in this conversation.

We wanted to let you know that there are a couple of ways you can support this project: through becoming a paid subscriber to our Substack or a Patreon member. Either of those options gets you access to our Discord where we are talking about things like how to survive this political time, managing relationships with family members, talking about religious trauma, and sharing art and music.

It has been lovely, and we'd love to have you join us. You can find links to those in the show notes. Today, we're going to hear DL story of estrangement, and I'm so excited for it. When we initially recorded that conversation, we not only talked about DL’s story, but also in true DL fashion, ended up talking about estrangement in Germany following the downfall of Hitler, and what we think is driving estrangement in the US today, which was a lot to pack into one episode. So we decided to separate this conversation into two episodes, one that focuses on DL’s story, and then one that looks at political estrangement in families. But for now, here's the first part of our conversation, the story of DL's estrangement with their parents.

DL: Hello everyone! Welcome to the STRONGWILLED podcast. Let's do a really quick intro to who we are, Krispin, just in case people are sort of new to us. I'm DL Mayfield. I've been married to you for 17 years. I've been a Christian writer, internet gadabout, I'm a Substacker, I'm a podcaster, you know, that's who I am.

Krispin: Very interesting person with very interesting thoughts. Now, that's biased coming from me because I really like you, but…

DL: Other people might say I'm a mentally unwell, brainwashed liberal.

Krispin: Oh, uh huh! Some people might say that which is sort of related to our topic today.

DL: Maybe my dad! [Both laugh] Let’s say that. Foreshadowing of the episode! 

Krispin: I was like, I thought we're gonna do a little introduction before we get to the content.

DL: Okay, it’s your turn. What does your dad think of you right now, Krispin? How's that for an intro? 

Krispin: Righ, yes! Let's do an introduction of who we are based on how our dads think of us. That's a great way to start. Oh my God. I am a therapist and I'm also a former Christian writer, podcaster. I have existed in the mental health space of writing, kind of processing Christian nationalism, you know, all of that. And then both of us leaving Christianity, within kind of recent times, last couple, three years.

DL: Yeah. It was funny, it didn't happen during the first Trump administration, which is interesting. We were white-knuckling Christianity, man, during those years and this round we are not, which honestly is helping my mental health. Not having to save Christianity along with America. That's nice. ‘Cause I don't have the energy to save either of those, honestly.

Krispin: Right, yeah. And also, I see this on the internet and I resonate deeply: you left Christianity and, wait a minute, you don’t escape it, because…

DL: Yes! Do you want me to give my little spiel about this? Okay, because of course that is super triggering, super depressing, super anxiety invoking, blah blah blah.

You know what I woke up this morning thinking? I have already survived this! Does that make sense? 

Krispin: Mm, uh huh.

DL: I already have and I will again. And we'll get into this because today we're talking about my estrangement story with my own parents. And yeah, I mean my access to information was severely limited.

You know, transphobia, homophobia was just the bread and butter. The white supremacist patriarchy –you know, I was inundated with it. And very little information was allowed into my life. So I'm like, yeah, I lived it. And I'm now just a queer little anarchist, leftist, little nightmare to them.

So we can do it. That's what I'm going to say.

Krispin: Right! I really like that take.

DL: Of course it's triggering, I’m not going to say it’s not.

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: But then sometimes when you process the initial terror and anxiety, fear and anger, you're like, wait a minute. I did survive already. So it seems likely I will again. You know?

And this time around I have marijuana!

Krispin: Hahaha!

DL: Which I did not the first Trump presidency.

Krispin: You traded Christianity for marijuana, just like everyone said the slippery slope would lead you on.

DL: I am wearing a tie dye shirt right now. okay? You might need to be a tiny bit of a pothead, if you're also an existentialist like myself, who studied Christian fascism for many years until, whoops a daisy, now I'm living under it. But again, I had already been living under it my entire childhood.

Krispin: Some Michael Caine in Children of Men vibes.

DL: Oh my god. So true. Okay, I'm totally getting us off on a ramble. Which is maybe what's gonna happen this episode.

Krispin: We are going to talk about your estrangement story. But we want to recognize, there are a lot of questions people have been bringing to us that just feel really personal, and so, DL, you are going to talk about your story and kind of where you've come with your parents, but…

DL: But not really. It’s not going to be too much of that, honestly. And I hope we will create some pathways and avenues for people who didn't grow up just like me to make some connections to some like divides that are going on in their families. 

Just right off the top, I want to say fascism creates estrangement. Right? And actually high control religions and cults in general do as well. And it serves to shore up the in-group status and then ostracize and punish those who do not conform. 

Krispin: Right.

DL: So it’s just totally a pattern, it's a playbook and it is happening in America in the families of Christian nationalists, white evangelicals, you know, whatever you want to call them.

Krispin: Right. Yeah, totally. So, yeah, I think that's happening in so many different areas. And religion doesn't even have to be a part of it, as we're seeing, just big portions of America get on board with fascist ideology, and that's going to create rifts.

DL: Yeah, and I think what we are saying here at STRONGWILLED is that authoritarianism and high control patriarchal frameworks are damaging in of themselves. Add God and religion to it and it just makes it worse. 

Krispin: Uh huh. Yeah. So, as sort of a caveat going into this, there are a lot of questions that we've been getting from folks that we're going to talk about in a Patreon episode coming up. Really, I want to get into, in that Patreon episode, a little bit of, like, if your parents were really invested in this ideology, their whole lives, whether it's being in ministry, or leading the men's small group, or whatever it is that laid the foundation for what we're seeing politically now, how do you deal with that?

So we'll just kind of talk a little bit more personally. We don't want to gate-keep that behind the paywall as much as it just feels really tender and sensitive as we're kind of navigating what those personal relationships look like. So we're gonna just do a Patreon episode on that.

DL: Like a Q& A for your estrangement questions. [We’ll] get into some particulars, get into some nitty gritties.

You can email us at strongwilledproject at gmail. com. If you're already a part of our Patreon or our STRONGWILLED Substack then you should have got a link to our Discord. We're having so much fun over on Discord. You can also ask your questions there and then we will be doing a Q& A about estrangement for that.

Again, it's only four bucks to join our Patreon. The Discord is hoppin’. It's amazing. 

Krispin: It’s really fun. My favorite part has been that people have been able to really easily share their religious trauma art. They're, they're like processing art, but yeah, music, art, like it's been really enriching. 

DL: It’s incredible.

Krispin: Enriching? That sounds like an institute for the arts. Our enrichment. It’s been really great.

DL: And as, you know, the big four social media companies are basically all aligned with fascism now. It's really important to continue to find ways to connect with each other outside of those apps and so I think Discord and Patreon and Substack is is where we're at for now. So thank you for listening! Thanks for supporting!

Let's get into talking about [singing] me being estranged from my parents

Krispin: Yes

DL: What did you think of that song?

Krispin: It's great. Yeah. It's very Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

DL: Yeah I’m not uncomfortable at all talking about this.

Krispin: I know. 

DL: I don’t feel good and my tummy’s hurting. I am going to hang out with cats today, so that’s my self-care plan after this.

Krispin: As in, just to clarify, DL volunteers at our local PetSmart and hangs out with the cats that are getting ready to be adopted, right?

DL: Yes. I do.

Krispin: It just sounded so fake. I'm gonna go hang out with cats.

DL: I'm a cat lady.

Krispin: I'm just gonna go to like a back alley and hang out with the cats.

DL: But I'm not a lady. Which we may or may not talk about that part of my story today. I don't know. Okay, really quickly, I'm want to say, even a few months ago, if I was talking about being estranged from my parents, it'll start like two and a half years ago with something that happened between one of our kids and my parents, right?

That is when we set up firm boundaries, all this stuff. But in thinking about it, I'm like, that's actually not true, right? That was like a boiling point. That was our kid really asking, like, can you please set up boundaries with these people in my life who are pressuring me intensely to believe just like them?

And their beliefs are homophobic and transphobic and controlling? And I just feel like I don't want to talk about that publicly because it involves our kid, right? And I guess what I feel comfortable saying is that I know we are not alone in this reality, where we are millennials who have kids who have a variety of identities that are under attack under the Trump administration, under Christian fascism, you know what I'm saying? And being parents to these kids has forced us to reevaluate our relationship to both like America and the systems, but then also to our parents. And it's super tough. And that's all I feel comfortable saying publicly. But I know other people have experienced that. 

I don’t know if you want to jump in, because I think this impacts you, too. I think if you've listened to Krispin’'s story, you will know, we've been estranged from Krispin's parents since 2016. Now, we are pretty estranged from my family even though they live pretty close to us. We do continue some ties to them. One of our kids is estranged, though, from my parents, right?

So that is that. I mean, you've had to live through this. I don't know if you want to say anything about that. Because then I'm going to go into, well, when did I really start to become estranged?

Krispin: Right, yeah. And we are going to do an episode later about what it's like to be a partner of someone going through estrangement and that dynamic. So, we'll share a little bit about that.

I'll share more about my experience during that episode. But, yeah, I really like this approach, this framework that you're using. And, you know, I’m a part of different estrangement communities, listening to podcasts, reading books, and something that I often hear is that point of estrangement, a lot of times there's already been an emotional estrangement that has existed for a long time. And it's really just making that emotional and internal reality more explicit.

DL: Yeah. I think that's such a great way of putting it. So I actually want to share four different interactions I had with my dad. And this is even before 2016. 

Krispin: Long before. Years before. 

DL: Yeah. But when you are Christian world, like when you have been raised and indoctrinated in this world, and you and I talk about this a lot, the thing that's hard–

It's like, my mom…So like there's estrangement in my family history. My mom was estranged from her family my whole life basically. But her narrative was like, Oh, cause they're all alcoholics – and Catholic. You know?

Krispin: Right.

DL: And just unhealthy, toxic people. Right. When you grow up in white evangelicalism there's this overarching mythology that you are the best people ever. You know, we talked about this. You’re the best people ever. You have the best family you're so close. And the closeness and the controlling element to that make it really hard to sometimes be like, wow, this is actually pretty fucked up. Especially if you're not the black sheep, right? I was the golden child of my family. It took me forever to be like, wait a minute. I don't think we're the best family ever. It took me so long!

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: And so today I'm just going to share a few stories where in the moment I wasn't able to process what was happening. But it absolutely was leading to me becoming estranged from my dad, in particular.

So, are we ready? For my stories? I'm gonna kind of go rapid fire. My hope is that people will be able to listen to this and be like, wow, I have had experiences with people in my family where this emotional distance was, was being created.

Krispin: And I just want to add, whether it's your membership in Christianity or a certain church or a family, I love this way of looking back and recognizing, like, there's always been a part of me that has said, Hey, something's not right here. Right? And I think tuning into that part of us that says, Hey, something's off.

And that's kind of what you're doing here. Even though it was long before you set that boundary, you were noticing. Going back, you can look and see that there's this part of me that was like, Hey, this doesn't feel good.

DL: Yeah, and I think for me, you know, I talked about my mom when I talked about my story earlier, [but] today, I will be talking almost exclusively about my dad because of this narrative that my dad was…I don’t know…

Krispin: The stable one.

DL: The stable one, the good one, the kind one, the nice one. The only time he ever got angry is when he talked about politics, right? And then his voice would shift, and he would basically be mimicking Rush Limbaugh, who he listened to all the time. So again, in my family, there's still this belief that my dad is kind, gentle, loving, not a misogynist, which I don’t think that’s true.

Krispin: Mm hm. Right.

DL: But all this pressure to be like, no, my dad's, you know, the good one. 

So trigger warnings: we're going to be talking about gaslighting around structural racism in the United States, capitalism, COVID, transphobia, homophobia, you know, all that stuff. So, there we go. 

I have this distinct memory, it was when George Zimmerman had just been acquitted for the death of Trayon Martin.

Krispin: I think something worth mentioning here is that we’d just spent a year working with a nonprofit in inner-city Minneapolis. 

DL: Yeah, so our neighbors were mostly people of color. A lot of black folks, you know, and I spent most of my years outside of the home, like living in refugee communities, which is different from people who've grown up in generational poverty in America.

So we were really learning a lot about structural racism, living in Minneapolis. I come home to spend Christmas with my family. I have a three year old kid at this point. And my dad and I got into this conversation about George Zimmerman and why he deserved to be acquitted. And what I remember of that conversation is just, I got so emotional and started crying. And my dad was just basically spouting things he was hearing on Rush. But what I was hearing is my dad was defending the death of an unarmed black teenage boy. You know? Because he was. And just I broke down crying, and then the conversation ended and my dad thought he won.

Krispin: Right. 

DL: He thought he won that argument because I devolved into emotion. While he had, like, the justice system, acquitted George Zimmerman because – you know, all this stuff. 

Krispin: Also, he really raised his voice during that interaction. 

DL: Yeah. Okay, so you were there.

Krispin: Yes, uh huh.

DL: And sometimes I have nightmares about that particular, like, kitchen counter I was leaning on when my dad raised his voice. And basically, in my mind, he became an apologist for death, right? At that point. Which was going to become a theme from then on out. 

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: An angry apologist for death. And then kind of like telling me that I'm losing the argument, I'm a bleeding heart liberal because I'm crying, you know? And so to me that kind of sets the tone and for what I also want to bring out is I think a lot of us, if you have parents who are deeply entrenched in this Christian nationalist ideology, in this triggered right wing stuff, they truly think they are winning arguments when they quote scripture, when they quote the Bible, when they repeat what their pastor said. My dad was a pastor.

So when he's repeating what other pastors say, what Rush Limbaugh said, they believe they are winning. Therefore it'll all work out. I'll eventually come back to believing what my dad believed like I did when I was little, because they're right. And instead I'm here being like my dad is an apologist for death, and I can't stop crying.

But my tears signal that I've lost. That's the scenario being set up by these kinds of culture war, you know, angry arguments.

Krispin: Right, and I think there's something here about empathy as well, right? 

DL: Oh, totally. 

Krispin: Where you're being too empathic…

DL: And that's a sign of being brainwashed by the liberal media, right? That’s what my dad told me, that’s what my dad has believed.

DL: Which kind of goes into, my first book came out in 2016.

Krispin: Mm-hm.

DL: Which was about sort of like the mission industrial complex. I did say some stuff in there that I'm still proud of. There's other things that I'm like, Oh my god, that does not age that well.

But the main core of my first book, which was called Assimilate or Go Home, Notes on a Failed Missionary on Rediscovering Faith, was about when I started working with refugees, I realized my religion and my country were only good news for people who are just like me. I still stand by that. You know, my evangelicalism, American capitalism, it's only good for a few. Right?

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: My dad read the book when it was published and said he was proud of me, and I was like, wow, yay, that's amazing. We're all moving forward. Then, after 2016, I started working slowly, slowly on my second book, The Myth of the American Dream. And I remember when I got a book contract for that –I didn't have the term Christian nationalism.

Nobody was using that term.. But that's basically what my book was going to be about. Just how have white evangelicals gotten so far away from the things that Jesus actually talked about? This is what all progressive Christians were doing. In this, in this cultural upheaval moment, you know? And when Trump was elected the first time, there was such pressure to like, do something, get your people.

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: I'm trying to get my dad. And, the wider Christian world who reads Christianity Today because I was writing for them, all this stuff. So I was under a ton of pressure. And I remember we went to the beach with my parents. I had two kids now, you know, I'm a grown ass adult. I was trying to bond with my parents, they stayed up late, trying to you know, connect with my heart, or whatever they say in their Christian way.

Because they, I mean, they can tell, right? We're slipping away. So they're trying. So they asked me what my next book's going to be about. They're asking all these questions. I thought they were truly interested, right? The Myth of the American Dream. And finally, my dad just says, I'm just really worried you're going to be writing a book that is pro-socialism.

And I remember being like, What? Socialism was not on my mind in any way, shape, or form.

Krispin: No. And you, being your darling autistic self, were like, yeah, my parents have read the Gospels, they know Jesus's teachings. I'm gonna say these things explicitly about how right wing Republicans have gotten, you know, are contrary to this, and if I just talk about it plainly, they'll be like, oh yeah, we totally get it.

DL: Yes. I mean, I remember I was so obsessed with Jesus at that point. Specifically Jesus as written in the account of Luke. Because Jesus had this one passage in particular called the woes, right? Woe to you who are rich for you have already received your reward.

Oh, I was obsessed.

Krispin: Uh huh. Haha.

DL: Obsessed. I mean, that was “eat the rich “in that day, you know? And so here I am passionately talking about this and my dad just interrupts to be like, I'm just really worried you're writing a book that's pro-socialism. And I was like, you know, record screech, like, wait, something's happening here.

Then to my knowledge, he never read that book, never talked to me about my writing ever again, never said he was proud about my work after that conversation. And that must have been before 2020. Probably 2019, 2018?

Krispin: Yeah. ‘Cause your book released right at the beginning of the pandemic. So it has to be like a year before.

DL: And this is in the beginning stages of it. 

Krispin: Right. 2017 probably.

DL: And we could really extrapolate – and I don’t really want to get into this – but the history behind the demonization of capitalism signifying being pro-socialism, like, I think, again, I didn't have the language for it, but that was when I realized my dad was a capitalist first and foremost.

Krispin: Mm hm. 

DL: Because it didn't seem like that to me. We didn't have money. We were literally at a beach house that was super crappy that was free to pastors, right? At that moment it was really hard for me to think of my dad as a capitalist, but he absolutely is. Even though he doesn't have money and capitalism has not been kind to him but whatever, you know what I mean?

So there was that. And I just remember being like, wow. They are really not understanding me, even though I'm using their religion. They told me Jesus was everything, and here I am taking it incredibly seriously. Oh, they did not give one fuck about that. Instead, they were really worried. And, you know, trying to control me.

Okay. Onto the next story. You ready? 

Krispin:Yeah. 

DL: Okay. Now we get to the COVID times! My book, The Myth American Dream came out, but guess what? I couldn't talk about it to anybody because there was a global pandemic happening and all the Christians, in my real life, like my parents, absolutely downplayed it, ignored it. And I just remember that was such an excruciating time for me.

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: For one, because my parents live 10 minutes away from us. So we were like, yeah, we'll be in a pod with them. 

Krispin: Right. Cause we had other family members living with them that we wanted to remain in contact with.

DL: Yeah. Nieces and nephews and all that stuff. So we were in a pod with my parents. This shouldn't have been a surprise to me seeing as the other two stories I just told you, plus all my lived experience, but my parents believed all the conspiracy theories about COVID. They did not want to get vaccines. Me and my two sisters had to like bully them and basically be like, you can't see your grandkids unless you do before they finally did. 

And again, this was so shocking because my dad was working as a hospital chaplain and a hospice chaplain, like working with sick people and just, they were just so obsessed with their personal liberty. And I remember my dad, in the beginning, we would be having these conversations around the dinner table at their home, and we would talk about, so-and-so we know died of COVID. And then my dad would be like, did they have any pre-existing conditions?

And then he started listing them, and it was stuff like, oh, they were overweight. Oh, they had diabetes. It was like personally blaming people for dying from COVID because they were overweight. Sorry, that’s really triggering, too.

Krispin: I was like, let's go back ten minutes and put an ableism, fat phobia trigger in there.

DL: Right? And I just remember sitting at this table with my dad where I would spend hours and hours of my day agonizing on if I was keeping people safe enough. Do you remember this? Do you remember how, to make a trade off to go to the grocery store and then, you know, you can't see anybody? And I had, I mean, how old were our kids at that time?

I had a preschooler who could have really used hanging out with kids, right? But I was like, absolutely not because I was trying to protect my parents. I was trying to protect everybody. And then to sit across from my dad and have him just so casually dismiss news of people dying with, basically, they deserved it because they had a pre-existing condition.

I also realized, well, he could come up with a pre-existing condition for anyone. But again, I was like, he's a pastor. He's in a position of leadership right now where he could be using his literal pulpit to encourage people to love their neighbors by keeping them safe, and he's doing the exact opposite, and again, being an apologist for death. Basically. At that point. 

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: And he just really didn't trust Oregon. I mean he hated being in Oregon. You know?

Krispin: Right. Yeah. And then, I mean, there was that whole thing of them being like, yeah, we're in a pod, we're going to keep these agreements.

And then they’d be like, and when our friend Mary came over last week.  And we were like, what? And they were like, don't worry, she hasn't, you know, she doesn't see anyone. And we're like, Oh my god.

DL: Oh yeah. They were horrible. 

Krispin: Those also, in addition, in those circles, I think it kind of speaks to this thing that comes up with folks a lot where your parents might like say the right thing, quote unquote, but it's disconnected from what they actually believe and then you have to wrestle with that.

Anyway. That’s kind of an aside, but I think just also speaks to the tension that was there of like, Hey, we really want you to take this seriously. And they did not.

DL: No they didn't. and then they made us feel horrible every time, you know,

Krispin: We were upset that they had a friend over when we had already agreed that we were in a bubble and we were going to keep it locked down.

DL: Okay, trigger warning COVID story incoming.

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: This all came to a head when my parents had friends visiting who did not get the vaccine because they believed there were aborted fetuses in the vaccine. Those people already had COVID by the time they arrived at my parents house. This was the second wave of COVID. And this was like their besties that they were going to retire in Costa Rica with.

Krispin: Which, by the way, they were retired in Costa Rica because they couldn’t afford the medical care. They were like, it's great. In Costa Rica, the medical system, once you go through whatever months of establishing residency, is free. Isn't that amazing?

DL: So they actually do love socialism, just not for America. Again, these people don't make sense. They're super racist, but will retire in Costa Rica so they can get socialism after railing against it and voting against it in America. This is happening all over the place. Anyhoo, well, those people got COVID and their friend died an excruciating death in the hospital, from COVID leaving behind his wife, who he made no arrangements for, who had like end stage Alzheimer's.

And my parents, I thought, oh, this will be a huge wake up call. Now they had visited us with their friends, even though we were like, wait, why are you letting unvaccinated people come, you know? And they're like, it'll be fine. It'll be fine. Well, it wasn't fine. I thought that would cause my parents to reevaluate some things and it didn't.

Right? They were just shocked that God didn't save their friend. And then they just kept going. And I was like, oh shit. There is no accountability, there is no reflection. This is kind of terrifying to me. Right?

Krispin: Right.

DL: So that was a huge wake up call too. So again, I'm still in the role of like the perfect, quote unquote, daughter at this point, even though there's so many things I've disagreed with my dad about in particular for so long.

And we had made sort of like this agreement not to talk politics starting when I was 19, because he would get so heated. Now, of course it came up through these things. I would say the last thing I really remember, and I've written about this on my Healing is My Special Interest Substack, was again being at their house and my dad just sort of casually making the statement where he said, you know, the one thing I'll never change my mind about is trans people.

And I'm like, how did that even come up? Right? The one thing, huh? It's more important than Jesus, huh? You know, that Jesus died and rose again.

Krispin: Right? Like you would change your mind on the resurrection? Or on divine birth?

DL: Uh hun. But not trans people. Girls are girls and boys are boys. And to him, that was just like, you know, him inserting his biblical beliefs into our chattering, you know, me and my sisters and all the grandkids.

And there's me all of a sudden in this vortex of like oh, he's telling me, this is like the most important thing to him. Now at that point I did not identify as nonbinary. I did not know I was allowed to. I did not know I was allowed to be queer, because I was, you know, so in that role of the perfect golden child still.

Krispin: Right.

DL: But that is cemented in my brain, because I remember thinking about all the grandkids and being like, oh shit, stuff’s coming down the pike then.

Krispin: Mm-hmm

DL: If this is the most important thing to you. Not really recognizing that also this is going to destroy my own relationship with my father, you know? So, I mean, those are kind of the four things that I have come back to. These interactions that I'm sure my dad doesn't remember. And I'm sure if he looked back, he would be like, Well, I won those.

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: I used the Bible. I said my piece about socialism being evil, you know?

Krispin: Right, and I think that there's this belief of like, Yeah, I'm allowed to say what my opinion is. Or I'm allowed to have my beliefs.

DL: But not even that, he thinks he won!

Krispin: Mm hm.

DL: Is definitely the sense I get.

Krispin: Uh huh.

DL: In this culture war battle. He thinks he won, and he has no clue that I'm left in the corner being like, Oh my God, I do not trust this man at all. I can't trust him. You know? But he has no clue about any of that. And I think this goes back to this larger idea and something we talk a lot about in STRONGWILLED are the promises that people like James Dobson and James MacArthur and Ted Tripp and, and all these, religious, authoritarian, parenting experts, they told parents if you do what we say, you will leave a legacy of a close knit family where all your kids believe exactly like you do.

Krispin: They will respect you, they will defer to you…

DL: Adore you, obey you, you will never lose control. Andy they will perfectly fit into the roles assigned to them at birth based on their assigned gender, right?

Krispin: And then they will go out and make a difference for the world, for Jesus, and for the patriarchy.

DL: That’s all secondary! Really, they just need to fit into their roles.

Krispin: Right.

DL: Does that make sense?

Krispin: Well, I–

DL: And obey their parents is the most important.

Krispin: I was going to say though, and then they will come back and they will thank you for how you enabled them to do that.

DL: And you'll always be close. And that's the part that kind of sucks because in like, quote unquote normal toxic families, estrangement is, yeah, that happens when your parent's an alcoholic, when your parent is verbally abusive. You know what I mean? We have these cultural beliefs that if your parent is spiraling out and on drugs all the time, an opioid addict–

Krispin: I think about my story, my concern about sharing my story of estrangement, I think it was important, but was like, there's this clear like abuse history, right?

And so it's like, I think most people would look at that and be like, Oh, yeah, that makes so much sense why you set that rigid boundary with your parents.

DL: But then there's these things happening in these religious authoritarian families where one of the reasons that estrangement is happening is because our parents simply cannot comprehend that we would want to distance ourselves from them, and so they are like always forcing themselves on us. Does that make sense? My parents were never gonna let me go physically go. Now, they don't really want to know me who for who I really was. So then it's just a forced proximity issue that makes them feel good and gives the illusion that we're all a big, happy family.

Again, my dad being a pastor, there was this extra pressure, right? 

Krispin: Yeah. I think it is extra pressure, but I think it's pretty ubiquitous throughout Christian families, right?

DL: Anybody who's obsessed with being perceived as good while they're actively persecuting people constantly, it's the hugest of huge red flags, and that is just white evangelicalism to a T, if you ask me. I’m sorry.

Krispin: Right. Well, and I think part of what we're getting at here with this like playbook idea is that, yeah, especially in high control religions, I wouldn't even say just white evangelicalism, usually rather than intuitively doing relationship and finding ways to meet everyone's needs or going to therapy to learn how to parent, in a way that's more emotionally responsive or whatever it is, t's just like, yeah, here's the textbook to follow.

And if you follow that textbook, this is actually based on how God designed things. Therefore, if you follow the textbook, everything will go well. And so it really inhibits people from self reflection to even ask that question. Like, was the way I parented my kids helpful to our relationship long term or not?

Right? They're just not even asking that question because in that high control religion, they're just saying, this is just the way it is and this is what you can expect the outcome to be.

DL: Yeah. I mean, there's a whole cottage industry out there, right? Of people talking about estrangement and a lot of it is centered on the parents who are now like why does my adult child never want to talk to me?

Well, here's my advice. You ready? You know what all of us want from our parents? We want parents who can self reflect, who can feel their own feelings and process their feelings without forcing us to do that for them or absolve them of their guilt or shame or whatever they feel. And we want accountability. That's it. But that is impossible for so many people. Now, some parents can do that. And that's incredible. I just think those are the three key components. Would you add anything to that?

Krispin: No, I think that's the biggest thing, is just being able to enter a conversation saying, Hey, I'm not assuming that I did everything right, and I really am open to hearing what it was like for you.

DL: Instead of going back to, well, here's where it was like for me, you know, it's just like, my goodness. 

Krispin: Right, yeah.

DL: Feel your own feelings on your own time. When you are here to hear from your children, listen to them. But that is something I have never experienced from my own parents and I have given up, you know, that that will happen.

I think what's so sad is when parents buy into this ideology, it's a totalizing ideology. I always talk about this, right? White American Christianity is totalizing in that it impacts every element of a person's life, including parenting. Now, when you get your hooks into how someone parented, of course, there's going to be so much shame.

There's going to be so many like walls put up where you can't self reflect on that, which kind of, again, creates this toxic stew. But if then you add on the God element. Well, this was God's way. And I was just being obedient to God. Therefore it must all work out for the good. Or, I'm being persecuted for following God and Satan has gotten to my kids. The liberal media has gotten to my kids. 

Krispin: Right, that’s what I was going to say is, yeah, then it becomes, well, this is God's way. And especially if you have kids that have walked away from the faith in any form, right? So for some of us that are listening, it's like walking away from the faith is just like taking a little bit of a different stance on say  race,

DL: Or going to a different church.

Krispin: Right, exactly. But I think it goes back to our last episode when we talked about adventures in Odyssey, right? We saw that where Whit, you know, if you don't know what I'm talking about, you can go back and listen to that. But Whit the father is like, yeah, I did what was right. And his daughter who was complaining about it was the godless kid who had gone to the city and like changed all of her beliefs. And so he has no reason to question whether what he did was right or not or the way he parented was right. 

DL:Yeah. I have a few more things I kind of want to just say real quick. One is that one of the things that happens and why I think estrangement is sort of inevitable when you have parents who still buy into this ideology, is basically, I think people who have immersed themselves in propaganda for decades, kind of believe that that's what everyone else is doing.

Krispin: Mmm.

DL: And so a lot of times the parents in these situations are just like, you know, my parents to me, like, Oh, you're being brainwashed by the liberal media. You're being brainwashed by the liberal media.

Krispin: Right! Okay, I have something to say about this, because I feel so strongly about this.

DL: You do feel strong about this!

Krispin: I remember that idea of having conversations with your parents where they’re like, well we just listen to different news sources. And we’re like, no, you are listening to news sources and we have a bookshelf full of historians and sociologists and psychologists and theologians–

DL: All the liberal elite.

Krispin: Right, who have, thought deeply about these things. We have done the work to analyze this, right? And

DL: I remember getting into a fight with my dad, and basically both of us being like, the New York Times suck. Me and my dad, and he was shook by that. 

Krispin: And we’re like, no, it's not because we listen to NPR, it's because we are reading books like the book that DL is about to talk about. Because we've actually done our research on the history of race in America. 

DL: I think brainwash is obviously such a weird word, but I do believe like my parents have willfully bought into propaganda for so long and that's why they assume that of me. And that I think is true for many people who cry brainwashing by the liberal media.

It's like oh you're telling on yourself. And conservatives do that all the time in so many ways. But this is one that I'm like, yeah you surround yourselves with propaganda. Which is why they're gonna have no trouble with Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, becoming pools of just propaganda because they're like, yeah, that's what we want.

I mean, that's how they raised me, is with only access to materials that were propaganda. Okay. And I'm sick of protecting Christians in this. I'm so sorry. I don't mean to sound so intense, but I've been doing lots of art projects with evangelical materials for children, and they are just straight up propaganda in so many ways.

And a lot of people are like, I can't believe my parents used this. They must not have known. I'm just like, Oh, honey, they knew. They didn't care. They didn't care. So they willingly subjected not only themselves, but their children to propaganda. Therefore that's what they're assuming of us. And it's just so belittling.

They think so little of me that they think my actual core values, beliefs and thoughts that I've carefully thought about, don't come from me at all. And I'm just willfully latching onto propaganda. So to me, I'm now like, anytime they say that, I'm just like, wow, you really don't know me, and you think so little of me and my intellect.

Krispin: Right. 

DL: Right? Noted! I can move on now. You know?

Krispin: Right. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, which is really painful.

Hello again. As I mentioned at the top of the episode, we decided to split this conversation into two weeks, so you'll hear the continuation next week when DL talks about estrangement trends in Germany as well as what we think is driving estrangement currently in the US.

Also of note, last week, we posted a chapter on the Substack talking about this topic, facing the emotional reality of being in a relationship with conservative parents. If you want to go read that it's called, It's not just political: Five myths about riffs between ex-evangelicals and their parents. You can find a link to that post in the show notes as well.

In the meantime, we'd love it if you considered becoming a supporter of substack or Patreon and join the conversation in our Discord about navigating these difficult relationships with family. As always, we appreciate you listening and we will be back next week.