I am blown away by this piece. So much so that I am having a hard time organizing my thoughts, but I want to try and share...
1) I see a correlation with the Mayfield's work and Gretchen Rubin's work of The Four Tendencies. I am wondering how many "strongwilled" among us have "rebel" tendencies which contribute to inability to comply.
2) I am wondering how many normal emotions are pathologized by religious authoritarian parents. I remember feeling extremely concerned that something was deeply wrong with me when I wasn't either happy or fine.
3) Finally I am wondering if many raised in this framework skipped developing autonomy during adolcence and then had to go back and redo that as an adult when/if it was safe to do so. I also question if this framework contributes emotionally immature adults if there is no self awareness that they didn't develop autonomy.
I'm not familiar with Rubin's work, but the other two really fit! And yeah, if we don't develop it in adolescence, we develop it later (usually), and I think a lot of people who grow up with RAP go through this when they're in their 30's, 40's or 50's
Ufff…”Rather than connecting with a child’s emotions or working through conflict together, when parents continually outsource engagement to the religious system, they don’t provide the relational connection that children need. “
Thank you for putting such thoughtful concise language to this. And the “how’s your heart” being an invitation to self criticism. Ugh, so much heavy stuff and also so validating to hear it laid out like this.
My mom was actually a really a deep and active listener for me growing up- I always thought we connected emotionally and at the same time like all my difficult, or uncomfortable, emotions were somehow due to my sin and failure. It was the spiritual advice and reframe (bypassing) in the form of scripture, prayer, witness, etc. that left me so disconnected. Like getting a little whisper of co-regulation and then being handed a heap of self-criticism and blame.
This puts to words all of my childhood. All of what you have written happened to me and it makes me feel so very understood and validated. I'm in my 50s and finally taking back my autonomy, finally knowing myself and being ok with myself. I can't express how grateful I am....
I came to the comments to say this very same thing! This episode right here... when you said "outsourcing emotional engagement" it made me want to have a lil praise dance break in the kitchen. Not actually, it just hit like a ton of bricks in the very best way! (maybe I'll try it next time as a therapy with movement to process emotions of deep hurt & impactful truth) I'm so thankful for y'all and am delighted to have discovered your important work!
Wow! So much good stuff that you two are both going over that is giving me so much understanding. I’ve been listening to this podcast at work and all I want to do is journal it out because it’s so true! Thank you for all of this! I am still finding words and sorting this out within myself, but listening to this was so validating and affirming. Love it!
I am so grateful for how Krispin and D.L. provided a written synopsis of this episode of the podcast. My brain doesn't do well with auditory learning. Having the main points written down in black and white is extremely helpful.
So, so much of this content is helpful, but particularly the way it is pointed out how children's emotions get assessed within a framework of ****moralizing and blame*****.
If the child is not feeling enough of virtuous/compliant/godly emotion X, it is because they are failing to do enough of "good" behavior Y or because they have been doing sinful behavior Z. And if a child is feeling any amount of sinful/disobedient/ungodly emotion Q, it is because they failed to do enough of "good" behavior Q or because they have been doing sinful behavior R. The child's emotions are so very rarely morally correct. And it is always, always the fault of the child.
No wonder growing up I learned to never show emotions around my parents, and learned to withdraw into a world of reading and abstractions so I could dissociate from my body and what I'd been taught were all its "sinful" urges and excesses. On the occasions when I slipped up and cried or got angry, my parents either told me I was disgusting or demanded to know, "what's the matter with you?" or "why are you being like that?" or got so angry that I came to associate expressing emotions with feeling terrified of their reactions. I learned to repress my emotions so that things wouldn't get too far toward any outward expression that would set my parents off. If I could route myself away from feeling my emotions in the first place, that would help ensure things didn't get too out of hand. Emotions are very likely to be immoral, I learned.
From what I can tell, my parents resented me and were bitter about their lives and their situation. My brain concluded it must be my fault. (I was taught over and over and over and over at church how despicable and sinful I was, so my child's brain concluded my parents' pain must be because of that.) I tried very, very hard to be perfect, to try to fix it, but all I got was criticism over everything I said, everything I did, everything I failed to do. I was never quick enough in my obedience (no one knew I was an AuDHDer), never feminine enough in my mannerisms nor interactional style (I now think I was nonbinary but I had no idea about that at the time), never cheerful enough, never enough, period.
I see now (several hundred logic diagrams scrawled in my journal later) that I was never going to be able to fit their rigid template, like literally not *able*.
TLDR: for me to have been able to have intended to do what I did "on purpose" and/or purposely "refused" to have done what I failed to do, I would have had to have been able to make my hippocampus, amygdala, and sensory cortex send different signals to the action centers of my brain than they did.
(For me to have been able to comply with my parents' demands, as best I can tell, I would have had to have had some magic super-power such as "free will." But reading in the neuroscience literature has been very healing for me because not only do I find zero evidence for "free will" there, I find all kinds of reasons to doubt "free will" exists. Learning how the agranular prefrontal cortex and granular prefrontal cortex interact has been particularly eye-opening. To my very limited understanding, the aPFC fabricates/speculates what the person's "intent" must have been for what they ended up doing based on what it felt like for the aPFC when the hippocampus, amygdala, and sensory cortex did what they did as the person executed whatever behavior. The gPFC then comes along and doesn't realize the aPFC's speculation/model is only just a model/speculation, but instead assumes the aPFC's best guess about what the person must have "intended" is really the truth, what the person really did intend. Like as though we humans are able to control the next thought that comes into our mind! %$#&! The gPFC then assesses the person's "intent" for having done what they did, including morally, and making attributions about the person having had mal-intent or virtuous intent in what they did!)
If I couldn't have done any better than I did, logically my parents' blame toward me, not to mention their rage and disgust, make no logical sense. I'm glad they're dead now and that I've found communities of exvangelicals and religious trauma survivors I can connect with and heal with. Love and support to all reading, here, including any of you parents who at any time indoctrinated your kids into toxic religious beliefs. You didn't know any better and were doing the best you could based on your best lights at the time. I hope you can extend some compassion to yourself.
Roll call: how many of us were labeled strong-willed? I sure was!
I was very well-behaved generally, especially in public, at church, and at school, but I did not accept my dad’s authority when he was being unfair (which was often because he had anger issues and took them out on us, mostly me). I “talked back” and got “spanked” in response.
Untangling Christian (post-Dobson and Colorado-evangelical, Gothard-adjacent) AND a sober adult child here, and YES. The 12 steps of ACA and "Laundry List" traits of adult children of alcoholic and dysfunctional families fits almost too well. Recovery very much includes separating our family authority with our concept of God or a higher power. It's wild to watch the dust settle after coming out.
This was so good!! I really hope your works gets out there more because this is such good stuff!!
I would love any resources people have for me. I have a niece who is very "strong willed" and the parents are still very conservative christians. I feel so bad for this sweet little girl that they call strong willed. Is there anything to point them to? I know they are definitely looking at Christian parenting books only right now, but they might be open.
So I discovered this podcast and Substack back in August via a TikTok clip that sampled this episode and my mind was blown. Someone finally put my experience into a thorough yet easy-to-consume format. I'd been in therapy for over a year at that point and while it was helpful, I still felt we'd only scratched the surface on why my Christian childhood in particular was so traumatic. So I texted her both episodes and she listened to them that same day. She texted back that it was very interesting and confirmed some suspicions she had and had helped bridge the gap between wheat she knew of my experience and what Bradley Onishi shares. Since then, we've made leaps and bounds in my mental health becuase I don't have to constantly preface why my dad is so rigid, legalistic and plain mean, and why my mom enables him. You both seriously have changed my life.
I am blown away by this piece. So much so that I am having a hard time organizing my thoughts, but I want to try and share...
1) I see a correlation with the Mayfield's work and Gretchen Rubin's work of The Four Tendencies. I am wondering how many "strongwilled" among us have "rebel" tendencies which contribute to inability to comply.
2) I am wondering how many normal emotions are pathologized by religious authoritarian parents. I remember feeling extremely concerned that something was deeply wrong with me when I wasn't either happy or fine.
3) Finally I am wondering if many raised in this framework skipped developing autonomy during adolcence and then had to go back and redo that as an adult when/if it was safe to do so. I also question if this framework contributes emotionally immature adults if there is no self awareness that they didn't develop autonomy.
I'm not familiar with Rubin's work, but the other two really fit! And yeah, if we don't develop it in adolescence, we develop it later (usually), and I think a lot of people who grow up with RAP go through this when they're in their 30's, 40's or 50's
Ufff…”Rather than connecting with a child’s emotions or working through conflict together, when parents continually outsource engagement to the religious system, they don’t provide the relational connection that children need. “
Thank you for putting such thoughtful concise language to this. And the “how’s your heart” being an invitation to self criticism. Ugh, so much heavy stuff and also so validating to hear it laid out like this.
My mom was actually a really a deep and active listener for me growing up- I always thought we connected emotionally and at the same time like all my difficult, or uncomfortable, emotions were somehow due to my sin and failure. It was the spiritual advice and reframe (bypassing) in the form of scripture, prayer, witness, etc. that left me so disconnected. Like getting a little whisper of co-regulation and then being handed a heap of self-criticism and blame.
This has been quite the mess for me to untangle as well . . . you did such a good job of explaining the dynamic here!
This puts to words all of my childhood. All of what you have written happened to me and it makes me feel so very understood and validated. I'm in my 50s and finally taking back my autonomy, finally knowing myself and being ok with myself. I can't express how grateful I am....
I came to the comments to say this very same thing! This episode right here... when you said "outsourcing emotional engagement" it made me want to have a lil praise dance break in the kitchen. Not actually, it just hit like a ton of bricks in the very best way! (maybe I'll try it next time as a therapy with movement to process emotions of deep hurt & impactful truth) I'm so thankful for y'all and am delighted to have discovered your important work!
I'm sooo glad it's helpful!
Wow! So much good stuff that you two are both going over that is giving me so much understanding. I’ve been listening to this podcast at work and all I want to do is journal it out because it’s so true! Thank you for all of this! I am still finding words and sorting this out within myself, but listening to this was so validating and affirming. Love it!
So glad its helpful!
I am so grateful for how Krispin and D.L. provided a written synopsis of this episode of the podcast. My brain doesn't do well with auditory learning. Having the main points written down in black and white is extremely helpful.
So, so much of this content is helpful, but particularly the way it is pointed out how children's emotions get assessed within a framework of ****moralizing and blame*****.
If the child is not feeling enough of virtuous/compliant/godly emotion X, it is because they are failing to do enough of "good" behavior Y or because they have been doing sinful behavior Z. And if a child is feeling any amount of sinful/disobedient/ungodly emotion Q, it is because they failed to do enough of "good" behavior Q or because they have been doing sinful behavior R. The child's emotions are so very rarely morally correct. And it is always, always the fault of the child.
No wonder growing up I learned to never show emotions around my parents, and learned to withdraw into a world of reading and abstractions so I could dissociate from my body and what I'd been taught were all its "sinful" urges and excesses. On the occasions when I slipped up and cried or got angry, my parents either told me I was disgusting or demanded to know, "what's the matter with you?" or "why are you being like that?" or got so angry that I came to associate expressing emotions with feeling terrified of their reactions. I learned to repress my emotions so that things wouldn't get too far toward any outward expression that would set my parents off. If I could route myself away from feeling my emotions in the first place, that would help ensure things didn't get too out of hand. Emotions are very likely to be immoral, I learned.
From what I can tell, my parents resented me and were bitter about their lives and their situation. My brain concluded it must be my fault. (I was taught over and over and over and over at church how despicable and sinful I was, so my child's brain concluded my parents' pain must be because of that.) I tried very, very hard to be perfect, to try to fix it, but all I got was criticism over everything I said, everything I did, everything I failed to do. I was never quick enough in my obedience (no one knew I was an AuDHDer), never feminine enough in my mannerisms nor interactional style (I now think I was nonbinary but I had no idea about that at the time), never cheerful enough, never enough, period.
I see now (several hundred logic diagrams scrawled in my journal later) that I was never going to be able to fit their rigid template, like literally not *able*.
TLDR: for me to have been able to have intended to do what I did "on purpose" and/or purposely "refused" to have done what I failed to do, I would have had to have been able to make my hippocampus, amygdala, and sensory cortex send different signals to the action centers of my brain than they did.
(For me to have been able to comply with my parents' demands, as best I can tell, I would have had to have had some magic super-power such as "free will." But reading in the neuroscience literature has been very healing for me because not only do I find zero evidence for "free will" there, I find all kinds of reasons to doubt "free will" exists. Learning how the agranular prefrontal cortex and granular prefrontal cortex interact has been particularly eye-opening. To my very limited understanding, the aPFC fabricates/speculates what the person's "intent" must have been for what they ended up doing based on what it felt like for the aPFC when the hippocampus, amygdala, and sensory cortex did what they did as the person executed whatever behavior. The gPFC then comes along and doesn't realize the aPFC's speculation/model is only just a model/speculation, but instead assumes the aPFC's best guess about what the person must have "intended" is really the truth, what the person really did intend. Like as though we humans are able to control the next thought that comes into our mind! %$#&! The gPFC then assesses the person's "intent" for having done what they did, including morally, and making attributions about the person having had mal-intent or virtuous intent in what they did!)
If I couldn't have done any better than I did, logically my parents' blame toward me, not to mention their rage and disgust, make no logical sense. I'm glad they're dead now and that I've found communities of exvangelicals and religious trauma survivors I can connect with and heal with. Love and support to all reading, here, including any of you parents who at any time indoctrinated your kids into toxic religious beliefs. You didn't know any better and were doing the best you could based on your best lights at the time. I hope you can extend some compassion to yourself.
Roll call: how many of us were labeled strong-willed? I sure was!
I was very well-behaved generally, especially in public, at church, and at school, but I did not accept my dad’s authority when he was being unfair (which was often because he had anger issues and took them out on us, mostly me). I “talked back” and got “spanked” in response.
I resonate with this dynamic with my dad too.
Untangling Christian (post-Dobson and Colorado-evangelical, Gothard-adjacent) AND a sober adult child here, and YES. The 12 steps of ACA and "Laundry List" traits of adult children of alcoholic and dysfunctional families fits almost too well. Recovery very much includes separating our family authority with our concept of God or a higher power. It's wild to watch the dust settle after coming out.
This was so good!! I really hope your works gets out there more because this is such good stuff!!
I would love any resources people have for me. I have a niece who is very "strong willed" and the parents are still very conservative christians. I feel so bad for this sweet little girl that they call strong willed. Is there anything to point them to? I know they are definitely looking at Christian parenting books only right now, but they might be open.
Maybe The Six Needs of Every Child by the Olricks? It was published by Zondervan, so maybe they'd read it?
Thank you!
So I discovered this podcast and Substack back in August via a TikTok clip that sampled this episode and my mind was blown. Someone finally put my experience into a thorough yet easy-to-consume format. I'd been in therapy for over a year at that point and while it was helpful, I still felt we'd only scratched the surface on why my Christian childhood in particular was so traumatic. So I texted her both episodes and she listened to them that same day. She texted back that it was very interesting and confirmed some suspicions she had and had helped bridge the gap between wheat she knew of my experience and what Bradley Onishi shares. Since then, we've made leaps and bounds in my mental health becuase I don't have to constantly preface why my dad is so rigid, legalistic and plain mean, and why my mom enables him. You both seriously have changed my life.