Welcome to STRONGWILLED, the multimedia project aimed at helping survivors of religious authoritarian parenting methods develop autonomy and find solidarity.
TW: Homophobia, corporal punishment / spanking, drug overdose.
We’re taking a side quest and spending a few episodes discussing The Hunger Games series, it’s analysis of power dynamics and violence against children. We’ll be recapping each movie from the original trilogy. Please send any questions or comments to strongwilledproject @ gmail.com, and we might include it in an episode.
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(transcript has been lightly edited for clarity)
Mockingjay Part 1
Krispin: Welcome to the STRONGWILLED Podcast where we are recovering autonomy after religious authoritarian parenting. Today's episode is an emphasis on the authoritarian part of that, right?
DL: I guess so. I just think it's funny we slightly tweak our tagline each time. You know, we try and get a few keywords in there.
Krispin: Right. That's great!
DL: STRONGWILLED, we're a multimedia project! read our work too, but also listen to us talk about the Hunger Games because why not? The algorithms are screwed. We are having to write things in the margins of our lives, and we want to talk about hunger games. Mm-hmm. We both really want to talk about hunger games. Right?
Krispin: Haha. Yes. Well, you know, back in my evangelical days, I would always say Hunger Games really makes me feel convicted.
DL: Does it?
Krispin: It's the movie that makes me feel the most convicted.
DL: It convicts your spirit?
Krispin: Uh huh. Yes. So I have always loved it.
DL: Great, great. So today we're talking about Mockingjay part one. Because they split up the last book of the Hungry Games into two movies. And I don't know how much I want to give away because I know people are listening to this who have never watched the movies and never read the books. This movie is rough to watch, is what I think.
Krispin: Yes. Right. I would say if you are this far into listening to us talk about Hunger Games and you haven't watched the movies yet, this is a decision point. Either you're going to do it or you're not.
DL: I don't understand that logic, but, okay. I
Krispin: I don't know, I just took a swing.
DL: I'm just saying, this one is the least fun.
Krispin: Right.
DL: But I am curious to know if things will come up as we're talking that do have some strong connections to what it's like to be raised in a religious authoritarian household. Now, I have seen some of those themes, but like always, we're kind of going to go through the movie, talk through it, and then have some rapid fire segments at the end.
We have some great questions, some great themes. But first we have to start with what do you think is the overarching theme of this movie?
Krispin: I think that the overarching theme is, I don't know, I can't say it succinctly, but just how overthrowing an authoritarian state power involves violence. And I'm not saying like it's a call for violence, but you're just faced with the fact that oppressive governments will not willingly give up power.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: And then there's sort of this like struggle throughout about what is the role of violence in a resistance. I think the movie is asking that – the book initially – is asking that question and saying, here are all the ways that people engage. But you are really faced with the violence that comes with political unrest, turmoil, overcoming authoritarianism.
I'm not saying it always has to be that way, but that for me was the main theme: here is the emotional weight of the reality of violence in the world.
DL: I think the overarching theme of the movie is about what does resistance look like? And the importance of propaganda. Propaganda is a huge theme. Propaganda is really tied to symbolism. And Katniss becomes the symbol of the revolution, even though she really doesn't want to, and therefore, she's still a piece in the games. Except now she's a piece in District 13’s games trying to resist the Capitol.
And to me it brings up so many ethical implications and questions about the importance of symbols and revolutionary icons to stir up people to fight back. So I think that's one of the big themes of this movie. But I also think this movie does something that I bet you appreciate, I know a lot of people do, is it shows the impact of violence on people.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: So like in a lot of American movies for instance, the action heroes, all that… Thunderbolts is an interesting example because it's like Marvel trying talk about the mental health thing. And they do an okay job, but I think this movie in particular, and I know Mockingjay Part Two talks about the long lasting impacts of trauma. And this movie's traumatizing.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Right. And we heard Haymitch say this in earlier parts where he says, there are no winners, no victors, they're just survivors. But we actually really see that here. I really appreciate, that's kind of where it starts out as Kat is having flashbacks and nightmares.
DL: It does start out like that. And she's trying to ground herself in reality. So, yeah, I'll just be curious as we recap this, if your therapist hat comes on about trauma and how people are desperately trying to deal with it.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. I mean, obviously the Hunger Games was traumatizing. But there's something about pre-trauma factors, which the research shows, which is things like, what was your home life growing up? And then when you go through trauma how does that impact how you process it? And I think we see that with probably all the characters.
DL: Yeah.
So, should we start at the beginning? We should set the stage. Remind folks. So Katniss and Peeta were in the Quarter Quell Hunger Games. So they had to go back to the Hunger Games, but towards the end they get broken out. They get taken by the rebels, rescued by the rebels.
DL: Katniss is.
Krispin: Right. Katniss is, Peeta is not. So then basically this movie starts where Katniss wakes up and is like, oh my God, I'm not in the Hunger Games anymore. Now I've been rescued by the rebels. I've been taken out. And now she's in District 13, which we thought didn't exist. She wakes up in District 13 and they're like, we got you out, we want you to be the Mockingjay.
DL: Mm-hmm. So I think that Katniss waking up in District 13 introduces us to this whole other world that, according to Katniss, reading the book through Katniss's eyes, seeing it through her eyes, she had no clue even existed.
So that is a theme that happens throughout this, including at the very end, when – Peeta spoiler alert – eventually is in District 13 too. So I think District 13 is a really interesting ethical question. And the history of District 13 is that they supposedly have nuclear weapons and they were supposedly doing mining, but really they were the military branch district. But then it should be no surprise, they're the ones that resisted first. And then the Capitol's like, we'll pretend to bomb you to smithereens if you just go underground and never come out. Because basically 13 and the Capitol were just pointing nukes at each other. So it was like a stalemate.
Krispin: Okay.
DL: So that's the story behind District 13. And you know, as someone who didn't read the books, I'm curious about your thoughts on how it is presented to Katniss, what the aesthetics are like, who's thriving in 13 and who's not.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. That's really interesting to know because you don't know that from the movie. She just wakes up in this underground place. And it's like a barracks that is hundreds of floors down, just like a military bunker. They don't see the sun. It's very bare bones. We meet Effie at some point in this.
And she's like, I'm stuck in here in a dungeon of jumpsuits. Which I think gives a good picture of what the aesthetics are. And you mostly just see people running by in platoons, and military personnel.
DL: Yeah. So Katniss is still in the war. They start to put pressure on her immediately, to say, hurry up and get better from your trauma. Because she's super distraught that they left Peeta. And basically she kind of goes off the rails and she's like, yeah, I'm mentally unstable and I'm not going to do anything. Because life is very ordered in 13, down to like the ounces of food you're allowed to eat and all this stuff. And so she's not loving it there. They really want her to become the face of the movement. And so in the books, Effie Trinket is not there. She's just in the movies for comedic relief. I think she does a great job.
But Plutarch Heavensbee was the head Gamemaker and now he's transitioned into orchestrating the game of this war. And he views Katniss as this really important piece in moving the game of war to the next step of getting all the districts to actually start to fight back, to give them hope, to encourage them to fight. And to be like, District 13 is here, and we're unified. We already have a leader. Her name is Alma Coin. And she's kind of a weirdo in my opinion. What do you think of her?
Krispin: I mean, I am struck by her. Yeah. She's very reserved. But also doesn't take in input from other people, so she sort of has these, I would say, unhealthy leadership tendencies.
DL: Yeah. She's kind of creepy.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: But also so different from Snow. And I do think Katniss in the books and in the movies, I think they do a pretty good job of being showing that she's just like, I don't even know anymore. Because of course, what is Katniss supposed to think? District 12 was bombed and less than 10% of District 12 survived.
So that means District 12 was only like 9,000 people. Again, not a ton of people. Now they're less than a hundred that have survived. And in the books it says they were just one week's worth of walking away from District 13. Like it would take one week of walking to get there.
Katniss is like, where the hell were you? If there's this whole military apparatus, where were you? And they're just like, it doesn't work like that. We couldn't, you know? But still, she's like, you've been hiding this whole time while all of this oppression, all of these hunger games, all of these things have been happening.
And they're like, yeah, we've just been waiting for the right time to resist. We had to build ourselves back. It also turns out 13 has had its own issues with survival. Learning how to survive that far underground, you know? There was this epidemic that killed most of their kids and left a lot of them infertile. So now they're finally like, yeah, let's let other people from the districts come live here, if they'll have kids.
Krispin: And Heavensbee the Gamemaker, he's the good guy. He's the one that got Katniss out. He went undercover. But very soon there's this unsettling feeling of like, oh, like I told you, like Gamemakers going to game.
He is still clearly using Katniss as a pawn. He's trying to emotionally manipulate her to become the Mockingjay. And so you just see the continued tactics that the Capitol uses, get used by the quote unquote good guys. And it starts to feel a little unsettling. I wondered for you, how did you feel watching – or reading about – Katniss? Did you want her to be the Mockingjay or not?
DL: No! No, no, no. Because I think if you are connected to her as a character, you're like, this is just a traumatized 17-year-old girl. You know? And she deserves to just sleep for the next two years. But, you know, I think another theme of this movie is war is hell, and so that's just sort of how it goes. I think there's a few things missing from the movie that are in the book that I think are actually really important. One of them is, at some point, Katniss is with Gale – by the way. Gale seems to love District 13
Krispin: Uh huh. He’s living his best life.
DL: He’s a military man at heart. But at some point they go down this floor where they're not supposed to be. They hear sounds of people in pain. And it turns out it's Katniss's stylists who had been evacuated from the Capitol or somehow got to District 13, and they're being tortured.
Oh, wow.
For stealing a piece of bread. More than they were supposed to eat. And Katnisss sees this and is just like, totally upset and gets them released, but they're all traumatized. And then Gale's like, what? Why do you feel sorry for them? If I could, if I had a switch that would kill everybody in the Capitol, I would do it.
These people cheered during the Hunger Games. And Katniss is like, these are people, they're basically like babies. They've been indoctrinated their whole lives. They're just trying to figure it out. I feel like maybe Coin is torturing them to get to me, to make me be the Mockingjay.
And Gale’s like, no. No. This is just how it works here. If you break a rule, there's severe consequences because it’s life and death here. It was a very interesting exchange. And this is a theme that will continue on, and in particular in the books, with Gale just being like, here's the things you have to do in order to win. Here's the things you have to do to keep order here to help us all survive. Like these harsh penalties. You know?
Krispin: It's almost like he's the counter to Peeta who's like, you have to continue to be who you are rather than–
DL: Well that was the old Peeta. That's not Peeta now! Should we talk about that?
Krispin: That's true. Well, one thing that I want to add is I felt very conflicted. Of course part of me wants Katniss to be the Mockingjay and lead, go forward. Part of me is like, yeah, like she's just 17 and she's traumatized and she's being made in a pawn. And one thing, we get to this later, but Cinna, who was killed by the Capitol had created these designs for her outfit to be the Mockingjay.
But what I really love is he's like, don't show these to her until she's decided. And there's two ways to look at that. One is, I know she's going to choose that, but I don't want to sway her. But the other I thought was actually like, I don't want to – like all these people are trying to coerce her into playing this role.
And I mean, Cinna just always pulls on my heartstrings and I feel like, thinking about this place where she's at, where people are really trying to pressure her to be the Mockingjay, I like that Cinna, even postmortem is like, I don't want to put that pressure on her.
DL: Yeah. And when Katniss finally agrees to become the Mockingjay and let them film her and make these propaganda spots, she realizes Gale is so pleased and Gale had seen Cinna’s drawings and Plutarch had as well. And she was like, oh, Gale, one of the good things he does this in that is he never tried to pressure her. And then she realizes once she decided to be in the Mockingjay he was very relieved and happy.
Krispin: Oh, interesting.
DL: So there's that. Katniss decides to be the Mockingjay but they try and film her in the underground bunker and put all this makeup on her. And to me, this is the most autistic part of the movie. Katniss is horrible. Beyond horrible.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: You know, unusable for the revolution.
Krispin: Yes. Right. She's stumbling across her words. It just doesn't feel authentic to her. And it's so clear.
DL: Yeah. And so finally, Haymitch arrives and he's like, this sucks. We can't do this. So then they decide, okay, Katniss can go out into the wider world and they decide to send her with a team of filmmakers and a few like soldiers, including Gale to go to District 8. And in the books this is the place where Katniss, even though she's already dressed like the Mockingjay, she's decided to be the Mockingjay when she goes to District 8 and she sees how many wounded people there are.
Because there had been some bombing there. So all the wounded and all the suffering people are all in this one makeshift hospital. And when people see her there, they're like, oh my God, is it really Katniss? She's like, yeah, I'm here. And they're like, are you here to fight?
She's like, yeah, I am. And she can just see how people start to get hope. People are getting excited. They're forgetting about their pain. They're forgetting about their suffering. And she is like, wow, I have a kind of power I never knew I had. Snow knew it. Plutarch knew it. Coin knew it. I didn't realize people really need this.
Krispin: Right.
DL: They really need it. Because she feels so awful. She walked into this room full of suffering. She's like, how can I help? Why am I here? Right. What am I doing?
Krispin: She's like, don't film me. I can't help them. She's has a mini meltdown, like, I can't do anything. Which really stood out to me because of that over-responsibility. She's always been responsible for everyone else's wellbeing, everyone else's suffering. She walks into a hospital of suffering people and she's like, I can't do anything.
DL: She totally has an internal meltdown. What does Gale do when he walks into the hospital? Do you remember?
Krispin: Does he tell her, you need to put on a face?
DL: No, he says to the person who's sort of running the joint, do you think it's a good idea to have all your wounded in one spot?
Krispin: Oh, right.
DL: So he is thinking from a military perspective, and the cruelty of the Capitol perspective. Katnisss just goes into this like wild desperation, like–
Krispin: I have to save everyone.
DL: Well, this is horrible, really is what she's feeling. She knows she can't save anyone. They have no medicine.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And so I just thought that was kind of interesting and is actually pointing to something that's going to happen at the end of part one of the book. But okay, so that happened. She's like, I have this power I never knew I had. Then they leave and they start hearing reports that there's Capitol bombers coming.
And so all of a sudden, Katniss is actually in an active battle situation. And of course she kind of loses her mind, especially when they realize they're targeting the hospital. So then she and Gale go rogue and take down some of the bombers.
Then Katniss rushes towards the hospital, sees that it's totally collapsed. There's going to be no survivors. Because if there would, if there could have been survivors, she would've gone in. But minors know when there's no hope. And they are filming her and she has this like incredibly authentic, desperate sort of response that they film. And that turns into this propaganda that they send out to people. Mm-hmm. So I want to put the clip in here of what she says.
Krispin: Okay.
Katniss: I want the rebels to know that I'm alive, that I'm in District 8, where the Capitol just bombed a hospital filled with unarmed men, women, and children, and there will be no survivors.
If you think for one second that the Capitol will ever treat us fairly, you are lying to yourself because we know who they are and what they do. This is what they do, and we must fight back.
I have a message for President Snow. You can torture us and bomb us and burn our districts to the ground. But do you see that? Fire is catching and if we burn, you burn with us.
Krispin: Whoa.
DL: Mm-hmm.
Krispin: Chills. But not in a like, oh, she's such a badass way, but just sort of the weight of it all. There is no other way. We have to put our lives on the line if anything is going to change and we have to be prepared for that. Which then we see a lot of people die in service of this resistance.
DL: Yeah. So I sort of had a meltdown of watching this movie and I was reminded of why I've never rewatched the Hunger Games movies. I think it's from this one. Now this came out in when? 2014.
Krispin: Yeah. Something like that.
DL: Yeah. So Mockingjay Part One came out in 2014, and I think watching this movie in 2025 is just so horrific because I've spent the past 18 months watching footage of unarmed children and women and men be bombed and be killed in Gaza.
And so I think that this movie is saying, that's a war crime of the highest caliber. If someone's willing to do you can never trust them ever again. Because that's the Capitol’s thing: We'll keep you safe, we'll keep you safe. But if they're willing to do that you can never trust them. They're revealing who they are.
And we have to fight back because they do that to one they're going to do it to everyone, right? Which I think is true. And, and I think for me, I’ve felt very isolated from many of my fellow Americans ever since October 7th, because I was like, Netanyahu's going to use this to kill so many innocent people and on my taxpayer dime.
And that happened. And just trying to get people to care, it's just been really demoralizing. And it's also demoralizing to watch this movie and be like, people will watch this and get shivers while watching Katniss's speech without being like, it's happening now and it's being live streamed.
Krispin: Mm-hmm.
DL: And what's happening in the United States of America– I will be labeled anti-Semitic just for saying this, that Israel's committing war crimes that are obviously war crimes. And so I just think it's just hard. It's hard to watch this for me because I have that same feeling as Katniss, which is once they do this, there's no going back, you guys. They'll do it to anyone. To keep power.
Krispin: Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, I think anyone who's paid attention to what's happened in Gaza watching this movie – I mean, watching this movie, I was just like, oh my God, this is like – watching these movies has been so emotionally intense.
But this just felt like I'm just watching something that happened like last week. That was the feeling watching it. It was just so depressing.
DL: Yeah. It's devastating. And of course I'm not in the front lines of a war, but I am someone who sees the images, who is paying attention enough and it impacts me deeply. And then somehow that's pathologized and it can get to a point where it's hard to function, but I'm like, this is about the future of humanity. It is to me, you know?
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DL: So, I don't know. I just feel like I really relate to Katniss. I think seeing this kind of devastation does different things to people.
Katniss, before all those people were bombed, had just had this realization like, I have a kind of power I never knew I had. That sort of contrasted with the only power the Capitol has, which is violence. Terror. And now they're going to start actually hurting all their suppliers because they're kind of in that death spiral.
And so what District 13 is doing is they're kind of encouraging all the other districts to start that death spiral even more. So we see the districts starting to fight back in their own way after they see this propo. That's what they call the propaganda pieces of Katniss saying if we burn, you, burn with us.
Which is honestly great. That's a great tagline. So we see District 5, which does power and electricity, a bunch of people it seems like just went on a suicide mission and blew up the dam. And that cut power to the Capitol. And what's interesting is seeing Capitol people just a little bit be impacted, finally start to be impacted by this violence that has been happening very far away from their comfortable lives. And let me tell you, I think that's what's coming next for America.
But anyways! Anyways! What happens in District 7?
Krispin: District 7, they plant all these landmines, and I think what's happening there is that they're actually on a strike. So I think they're refusing to – because they're talking about how there are strikes that are happening.
And then you see all the wood cutters being marched out into the forest. By the Peacekeepers. So that to me said, I was just like putting two and two together, that they were being forced to work. Maybe that's not true.
DL: I don't know. None of that's in the book.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. So they're all walking out there and then somebody gives a signal, whistles the Mockingjay song. They all climb up in the trees. Somebody yells, if we burn, you burn with us, and then all these explosives under the ground kill all the Peacekeepers that are standing on the ground while the people that have been working in trees their whole lives, a lot of them are able to get up.
Now within both of these missions there are dozens of people at least shot by Peacekeepers. So it's not like a sneak in and plant the bombs and sneak out. It's hundreds of people just rushing the dam or hundreds of people out in the forest. And then you try to escape if you can.
DL: Yeah. I think the overall point is like these districts, people use the skills they have to fight back. And use their strategic resources that the Capitol needs to fight back, too. So I think that's sort of interesting, but it's also sort of like a flattened approach to resistance.
Krispin: Yes. And what I want to say is about this scene, and especially the hospital being bombed, up until this point in the movies, you're like, yeah, this is a sci-fi world. This is a fantasy world that doesn't exist here. And I just feel you're talking about this movie just being so devastating and the whole movie just feels so realistic to me.
It doesn't feel like a different world. It feels like real bunkers that exist in the world. Real war zones.
DL: Yeah, it's shockingly real to me. And that’s not how I really experienced it in 2014. And again, maybe I was just in a different head space. Maybe it was too real and that's why I was like, I don't want to watch these movies anymore.
I can't really remember, but I agree. And I think being an American and just knowing how our movies, especially like our war movies, are pretty much all propaganda pieces. It really, it really brought to mind like, oh, this is different. This is really different. This is the war as hell movie in a way that kind of indicts everyone.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And I think that just continues to happen. Therefore I'm like, this is a great antiwar propaganda movie. And in the book, something interesting happens when Katniss sees like herself the first time they air the propo she, you know, 'cause she kind of like hates seeing herself on camera, she hates all that, but she was like, whoa, I've never seen anything on a screen that's anti-Capitol before. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes. Uh huh.
DL: So that was the first time she's ever seen anti-Capitol propaganda and she was like, this is powerful, right? And then Beetee helps get these messages to all the districts and at the end, even to the Capitol itself.
So everybody's having this experience of seeing anti-Capitol propaganda. That just made me think, wow, when you grow up in this totalitarian state it can be so powerful and so jarring when you finally see something that contradicts and is actually like fighting back against this narrative.
And I think this is the key thing that connects to the work at STRONGWILLED. Which is, to grow up in a religious authoritarian household, they were really trying to control the information we had access to. And that's why Christian media, Christian publishing, your involvement in your church, going to a Christian school, having Christian friends, it all built on top of itself to create this world where very few people could contradict the propaganda.
And that absolutely worked for me. And we were even trained, if somebody said something anti-Christian, that was actually a good thing and we were being persecuted and we were to stand up and defend and it would actually like shore up our belief. Because if it wasn't true, then people would just leave us alone or, you know, stuff like that.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Yeah.
DL: And so I'm like, damn, I got so much I can really identify with Katniss being 17 and be like, this is the first time I've ever seen anything that contradicts the Capitol.
Krispin: Right. Yes. So I think this is a great time to talk about Peeta.
DL: Yes. But I don't want to talk about my baby.
Krispin: Uh huh. So Peeta is doing these talk show appearances with Caesar. That's the kind of the vibe. But they're really serious. And I love how Caesar is such a sort of like histrionic. He's so just playing the crowd, right?
DL: Not in this one! No, I feel like they're all under duress.
Krispin: That's interesting. I feel like he is, it feels so manipulative is what I mean.
DL: No, I feel like they're both playing their role. That's just my thought!
DL: But it’s obvious that Peeta's being tortured, it's obvious that things are going on. And he's just trying to keep Katniss safe. But he basically ends up becoming a traitor to District 13 because he says, Katniss, please think about what you're doing. We need a ceasefire. So many people are going to get killed. You have to end this. And so then everybody in District 13 hates Peeta with a passion. And Katniss is like, oh my God, he's being tortured I can tell like, Snow's doing this to hurt me. So it turns into this multilayered point of pain for Katniss.
Krispin: Right. Yes. Yeah. And Peeta is promoting this propaganda. And thinking about the evangelical thing, Peeta is from District 12 that has been bombed. Now, he doesn't know that it's been bombed.
DL: Yeah. He doesn't know.
Krispin: But he's speaking on behalf of the Capitol. And that, that makes me think about being evangelical, where you have someone from a marginalized group that has been oppressed by evangelicalism but then they become a spokesperson for it.
DL: Yep. We've seen that happen a time or two.
Krispin: Uh huh.
DL: Yeah. And so Peeta's Games delves a lot into the torture that Peeta experienced. It’s just super tough stuff to read.
Krispin: Which in the movie you can kind of tell, but it's a little bit unclear. You know that Peeta is being coerced, but you're not quite sure what it's about.
DL: So what happens is they would inject him with tracker jacker venom so he would have these hallucinations. And that venom specifically targets the fear part of your brain. And so then they would like falsely implant memories while in that fear state.
And then they altered every single memory they could of Katniss to make her out to be this monster. Kind of marrying some of his memories of the mutts in the first game, all this stuff. So basically they're turning him into this weapon to cause Katniss pain. Because, you know, he's like one of the few people in her life that has loved her unconditionally and now that very love has been twisted.
So when they eventually go to a rescue mission for Peeta – because one of his last broadcasts, he basically is telling them like, stop this, stop this now, you have to and everyone's freaking out in 13, right? But then he is like, they're coming for you. And then the broadcast ends. So everyone's like, what does that mean? And Haymitch is like, obviously the Capitol's coming to 13 to bomb us. So then they evacuate everyone.
And Peeta's warning helps save every single person in 13. They were able to get underground, they were able to survive the bombing. And finally they're wanting Katniss to make a propo above ground, showing the rebels above 13 and being like, I'm fine. Not a single person in 13 was harmed. We are still going, we're still here.
But she can't, she ends up breaking down. She can't do it because she's like, no matter what I say, like they're going to use this to punish and hurt Peeta even more. Because she can see he's devolving and obviously being tortured. She's not able to, so finally the reason they go rescue Peeta and Joanna and Annie is because they're like, we need the Mockingjay and the Mockingjay won't do it unless we have Peeta. Plus Peeta saved everyone's, so Coin is like, okay, fine.
Krispin: Right. Yeah. Plus, they talk about the game part of it. They're like, okay, if you have, if we have Katniss talking on behalf of District 13, Peeta talking on behalf of the Capitol, then it doesn't work.
So if we can get Peeta, then the Capitol doesn't have a propaganda weapon to use anymore. But it's still very much just like, it's not because they personally care about Peeta. They're like, this is strategic in the war.
DL: Yeah. And during this time, there's lots of war shit happening. There's lots of discussion of war and strategy. And Gale, at one point near the end of the first part of the book, Gale has been working with Beetee and coming up with all these different like traps and snare, because he thinks like a hunter. And I think this is really interesting, and it's interesting that they kept this out of the movie, but they're showing Katniss all these plans they've come up with, and one of them is to bomb a hospital or someplace like that.
Just do a little light bombing, wait until all the medics and everyone rushes in to help and then bomb it to smithereens. And Katniss is like, wait, what are we doing here? This seems really bad. And Gale’s like, it's no worse than what the Capitol does. You have to think like them. You have to fight like them. Which is foreshadowing something that's going to happen in Mockingjay Part Two. But the seeds are being planted here. Gale, the way he's being impacted by this trauma is he's like, okay. And he says, we're playing by the Capitol's rule book now.
Because Katniss says, I guess there's no rules anymore. You can just do this. And Gale's, like, there is a rule book. And the Capitol's using it and we're going to use it back. And I'm like, damn. Of course, this is a way trauma works, this perpetuating these cycles of violence where Gale is actually using his ability as a hunter to think, how can we inflict the most pain on humans?
Because he already said he doesn't view the Capitol people as humans because he's willing to flip a switch and kill them all. So I don't know. I just think all of that is sort of here in this first section. Beetee is still there as someone who's really smart and in the books, as soon as he was coherent enough they shipped Beetee down to the weapons room and were like, you need to be making weapons.
You know, again, he's still a piece in these war games. And it's just so sad. Finnick Odair throughout this whole time he has lost his marbles. And he is wandering around in a hospital gown with this little piece of rope, fiddling with it.
Krispin: I was wondering, because you don't see him very much in the movie. He's just sort of there.
DL: Nope. Because Snow has Annie in his torturing Annie, and so he's similar to Katniss, which is like, it's just agony not knowing. So then finally when they go to do this rescue mission, Gale goes, Gale, volunteers to go get Peeta. Everybody thinks they're going to die. All this stuff happens. To me, this is the worst part of the movie. It was so long and so drawn out, this rescue mission. I was like, I’m bored.
Krispin: You were like, get on with it.
DL: You can tell they put this into two movies and they had to stretch out this thing, which didn't need to be stretched out. But basically, Gale's like, I don't understand, President Snow, just basically let us go. And then what happens, Krispin?
Krispin: Then everyone's reunited with their loved ones. So Finnick and Annie, and then Katniss and Peeta reunite. And then Peeta just jumps on her and tries to choke her to death.
DL: Yeah. I mean, he almost does.
Krispin: Yes. Right. He knocks her out. They end up having to like knock him out with a chair because they can't restrain him. It's intense. And then she recovers, and the last few minutes of the movie, Peeta is in this secure room where he's just going wild, like, I just need to kill Katniss. I just need to kill Katniss. He doesn’t say that, but that's the energy, right?
DL: Yeah. And throughout the movie and the book, Katniss is like, how can Snow continue to use Peeta to torture me? What else can he do? He's obviously keeping Peeta alive because if he killed Peeta that part would be over, and Prim at one point is like, I think he'll do whatever will break you the most. And it turns out this is it. This totally breaks Katniss. And she kind of goes catatonic again.
Krispin: Yeah. And Snow has a transmission to her during that time where he says, just remember what you love most will destroy you. You'll remember that I said that.
DL: It’s not in the books, but that's fine. And I think as a reader, you know, I was like, I don't understand why this is the thing that breaks Katniss. But you know, again, she's 17, Peeta is her safe person, you know, that she only just now figured out.
And if this is true, you can't change this, if this is how Peeta is, it's like her entire future is gone. I think something interesting that happens in the book right before they rescue Peeta is when they're being bombed and stuff, Prim tells Katniss, because Katniss needs to be distracted, Prim tells Katniss, and this is the movie too, they're training me to be a doctor. And she's so excited. And in the book, Katniss is like, wow, like this is worth fighting for. Like in District 12 there's no chance that Prim could be a doctor, right? Prim would just have to grow up, be a miner, be a miner's wife.
There's no opportunity for anything like that. But in district 13, they're like, oh, you have these healing skills. Yeah, we'll train you. You can become a doctor. And Prim loves that work. Just loves it. And so Katniss is like, what is this feeling I have? Like maybe this is worth fighting for, a future where my sister can be a doctor instead of just having this miserable life in 12.
And so I think that's interesting to think about all these things that have motivated Katniss. It's been trauma, it's been her loved one's being tortured, it's been all this, and then we see this other motivation come up, which is, I'm fighting for a better world. Literally. And so I think that was like kind of beautiful, but also really heartbreaking. But this is one of the myriads of reasons why you fight, is for a future that’s better.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: And I think about that, if I'm being honest, today is the first day of Pride Month, I have all sorts of feelings about that. And I just think about so many of us who were raised, raised in religious authoritarian households, where queerness was seen as like the enemy. And if we're talking about being indoctrinated and fear responses, I remember my mom explicitly teaching me about gay people and how bad they were, how disgusting they were.
You know, she would read me Romans and be like, here's the list of all the sins and homosexuality is last, which means it's the worst.
Krispin: Oh my god. Uh huh.
DL: You know, stuff like that, making fun of gay people, making fun of queer people, pitying them, you know, all this stuff over and over and over again. And just thinking like, all of this really contributed to not wanting to explore queerness for me, not being able to celebrate it. I had thoughts about Pride Month, like, what's all this about? Why are you flaunting it? You know?
And I just think, wow, just one little example of how this indoctrination can work and how I now view my relationship with my parents right is so strained. And I just want to be like, your bigotry, like, there's no hope for this in the future. When I think of the world I want my kids to live in, it is not a world run by Christian nationalists.
So part of the work I do to be a public non-binary person is like, yeah, because we deserve to live in a world where this is normalized. It is not normalized now. And that's why it's not fun to be public. But that's the future I'm fighting for. And that's why I think Pride Month, I'm going to have a good time if I can. You know what I mean?
Krispin: If we have to keep watching Hunger Games?
DL: No! We're almost done. We're almost done. It does end sort of happily. Sort of. And we will get to talk about that next episode.
Krispin: Oh, the whole series. I was like, this movie didn't end happily.
DL: This movie ends horribly.
Krispin: Right. Very unsettlingly.
DL: With Peeta just so obviously in such existential psychic pain. From being tortured. It’s really sad!
Krispin: Mm-hmm. And then Katniss watching him in that state.
DL: Yeah. Very, very sad. Okay. Do you have anything else to say about the movie before we go into the rapid fire?
Krispin: No. I was thinking about it but, no, that's a good ending point. Time for rapid fire segments. Who is your favorite character?
DL: Well, I think a great change they made in the movie – and I'll say overall, the movie is much more horrifying than the book, to me.
Krispin: Hm, okay.
DL: The movie, just the visuals, and maybe this is just my personality, but I legit had a meltdown watching this movie. I did not have a meltdown reading the book.
Krispin: Huh.
DL: And I don't know why the movie just makes war so much more real. And it really, really put me in, like, I can't escape thinking about Gaza. So I will say that's one way I feel like the movie excelled as oh my god, the war is hell, the reality of war propaganda, anti-American-war propaganda. Then they put Effie in District 13 which was great. You needed her there. She had the only funny lines in the whole. So I really loved Effie being there.
Krispin: Yes. Because not only did she say the thing about the jumpsuit dungeon, she's like, I'm a political refugee.
DL: I'm a political refugee. And she's so upset about the lack of hierarchy and status in 13, and 13 gives off real intensely militaristic and also communist? Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes, totally. Yeah. I mean, kind of a commune vibe. Even just thinking about the meals, everybody just eats the same glop, right?
DL: Well and at some point Gale's like, this feels more controlling than the Capitol. But then other people who are from district 12, who are refugees there, they're like, I like it. I get enough food, which I didn't really have in 12. You get to go to school here, you get to do… you know? So it's very interesting. All of those themes in there. Okay but who's your favorite character?
Krispin: I really like Cressida. I don't know if that's how you say your name, but she's the director for the propos. So she’s going through and setting up shots and stuff, and I like that she's passionate about her job, and even though she directs Katniss, she doesn't feel coercive. She just feels like an actually really supportive person. I just really liked her.
DL: Yeah. I think there's some interesting things to say about her, but I'll say that for the next segment, which is existential crisis. Everybody already knows what mine is that I'm still having. What’s yours.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Should I start with mine? My existential crisis was, when authoritarians like Snow get into power, it, at least in this world, there was no way for there to be a change without a lot of people losing their lives. And that was really depressing to me to think about. You know, when we watch action movies, you're like, yeah, it's a storm trooper who dies. And because of how realistic this movie felt, because of the message of it, every time somebody died trying to bomb the dam or whatever, I was just like, that was a person. That was someone's sister, brother, sibling, you know?
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: So that was really depressing. And just these elements, too, of that you have District 13 that has these military weapons, but in some ways it's less powerful than the people doing the direct action because it just escalates this atomic level of destruction. So, I don't know. I mean, my existential thought is just all the existential thoughts that have ever come up around war and conflict and violence.
Okay. My other existential 10 seconds is the fact that people like Snow exist. There are evil people in the world, that if the rest of us don't actively fight against them – it just sucks that we, as humanity, are in a pattern of trying to keep these shitheads from just oppressing and holding so much power. And it's continual work that feels like we have to continually do through all the centuries.
DL: Yeah. And nobody wants to do it. I mean, the few people who want to do it are kind of sociopaths, you know? But, yeah, that's such an existential crisis and one that Americans right now are uniquely unprepared to even think about, what it means to resist. But San Diego ICE is arresting people and throwing flash bangs and this is going to keep happening. So I think people do need to think about, how can I interrupt? What are direct actions I'm willing to do? It's definitely at that point.
And I think for me, one of my existential crises is, this book series seems to say, based off of where you lived, where you were born, you have these skills and ways you can resist. The ways that you supply the Capitol are also the ways you can resist. What's interesting is that the Capitol people only seem to be good at propaganda. So Cressida and the filmmakers, they all left the Capitol to come join the resistance when they heard District 13 was there, so people left the Capitol, not tons, made it to district 13, and they're like, we're here to help.
And that's their skillset. That's Effie’s skillset. In the books, that's the stylists’ skillset. And all these people making the propos, they're all Capitol people. And District 13's like, okay. but District 13's not the one saying we need all these propaganda movies. Does that make sense?
Krispin: Yes. Right.
DL: So I just felt like, is that all I am good for is writing things?
Krispin: I was going to say, yeah, we're doing propo right now.
DL: We’re doing a propo right now. However, I will say I'm doing this one really badly.
Krispin: You are Katniss through and through.
DL: So maybe that's saving my ass right now as I'm just like, I don't want to make this funny guys, this fucking sucks. War ss hell. I just keep saying war ss hell. I've been to Vietnam. But at the same time, I have been exposed to really traumatic shit. And I'm not discounting that. All of us who have paid attention and let the reality of what is happening sink in…I have some fucking trauma!
Krispin: Yeah. Well, not that we need the psychological establishment to validate anything–
DL: No, we don't. I’m looking at you.
Krispin: That being said, I think something that that gets overlooked often is in the DSM, for post-traumatic stress disorder, you can get diagnosed with PTSD for secondary exposure.
DL: Yeah, I know. And I already had good old CPTSD from my childhood.
Krispin: Right. But just recognizing that hearing stories, even watching something like this and knowing that this is a representation of something that exists in the world currently is enough to give you that PTSD.
DL: Okay, I have another thing to say. Remember when I was talking about Peeta and the tracker jacker venom and how it targets the fear center? Well, that's exactly what spanking does. When a caregiver is hurting their child, it obviously sparks fear in the kid.
Krispin: Right.
DL: And in a Christian home, if you're doing it the Dr. Dobson way, you're being told, this is loving. I love you. God loves you. All you need to do is repent and obey me, and everything will be fine. It's like, yeah, they're fucking programming you at that point, to when you feel afraid and you feel upset, it's like, no, this is good. I must submit, I must ask for forgiveness. My parents are right, I'm wrong. Even though this feels horrible, this is what's supposed to happen.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: I’m sorry! That’s why the Dr. Dobson method is so bad!
Krispin: Uh huh, right. Because when you are presented with a threat, instead of having a boundary that says, this isn't okay, I'm going to fight back, you are taught to respond to threats with submission.
DL: And there's plenty of people, y'all, outside the Christian world who when they read books like Dr. Dobsons, they're like, this is child torture. So I just want to say that as well. Okay. So anyhoo…
Krispin: Yeah. Can we talk about the plot hole that I've been thinking about?
DL: Yes. You're so proud of this.
Krispin: Well, I know that it's inane, which is why I haven't brought it up until now because in every single movie, I've thought, if they just had a 30 second delay on every TV broadcast, the Capitol would have so much more power. Whether it's with the first Hunger Games, if they had just like had a 30 second delay where they could have cut the broadcast so that not everyone would see them threatening to eat the berries.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: In the second movie, whenever they were on stage with Caesar, if they could have just cut the feed, so then not everyone would see what they said in this movie when Peeta warns them that the Capitol's coming. If they just had that 30 second delay, which is pretty typical for most broadcast networks.
I don't know if it's five seconds or 30 seconds or what it is, but, in an authoritarian state, you would kind of expect them to not do anything live. You’d think they would be like, we're going to record things, we're going to vet it, and then we'll put it on the airwaves.
DL: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think it just shows that everybody has blind spots, which was the theme of the second book and movie. And obviously propaganda is the main work of the Capitol, and it's also something that can be targeted. And so when it goes off the rails, they're unprepared because nobody has taken it off the rails. Therefore, why are they worried about it?
Krispin: That's what I was thinking. Right. Yeah. Even what you were saying earlier, I was thinking about this, because you were talking about what it would be like to be 17 years old and never see anti-Capitol stuff on a screen. And it's like, yeah, they just didn't have to worry about it.
DL: Exactly. So that's where, to me this seems plausible. And also it's really honestly inspiring to me as someone who didn't start standing up to my family till I was in my mid-thirties, it's like, sometimes the element of surprise can work. You know what I mean? I was so indoctrinated, now it's just like, don't talk to me about God. Stop being a bigot. I don't like hanging out with miserable people. And they're shocked.
You know, it's like you're not supposed to say any of those things and blah, blah, blah. But I'm like, but I am. I just am. So I think there's this element of like, wow, when you can interrupt their narrative, they're kind of super unprepared for that, especially if the narrative has been ironclad for a long time.
Krispin: Mm hmm. Right.
DL: Okay. We're not going to do least favorite scene. I'm deciding against that.
Krispin: You already talked about yours.
DL: Let's, do you have one?
Krispin: No. I agree with you. When they go and get, Peeta is too drawn out. And they didn't even have to do that for the two movies. It did not need to be two hours and 20 minutes.
DL: This was the shortest one of all the movies. Can you believe it?
Krispin: Really? Okay.
DL: It took us three days to watch it, because I was struggling. Okay, Love Triangle Corner. My precious baby Peeta’s hardly in this movie, and he's in agony and it's sad. I hate it. Gale. I still hate Gale, but he has a few redeeming moments in this movie.
Krispin: Uh huh. You're saying he is a complicated character?
DL: He's a complicated character.
Krispin: Everyone's a complicated character! That's why I had to choose Cressida, because everyone else is, is really complicated in this movie, and I have a multitude of feelings towards them. For her, I was like, yeah, she's nice.
DL: How do you feel about Gale? Yeah, also complicated because he is so ready to be a military bro. Red flag.
DL: Yes. And he does this interesting dance of, Katniss feels like safe enough around him. I think the movie does a good job of being like, she's 17, Peeta is gone and being tortured, yeah, maybe she should snuggle Gale a little bit. But he also is like, you only kiss me when I'm in pain. And don't worry, I'll get over it. So he's kind of already resigned.
Krispin: Yeah.
DL: But then he still puts pressure when her and Finnick are both freaking out about Annie and Peeta. He gets this like really butt hurt expression on his face and it enrages Katniss. Like, what? Who cares if I'm hanging out with Finnick?
Krispin: Oh, uh huh.
DL: She's like, is he jealous?
Krispin: That's the book, right?
DL: Yes. And she's so upset about him trying to control her. So when he doesn't try and control her and he's legitimately in pain, she's like, I care about him. But if he tries to control her or she sees some of this military shit, she's like, what??
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: So that’s just kind of interesting.
Krispin: Yeah. I did like when he said that. When he was like, I only get your attention when I'm in pain. I feel like there's this level of emotional maturity there.
DL: I mean, sort of when he is like, don't worry, I'll get over it. I’m like, good! You take care of your own emotions. But then later on he’s so wounded that she's hanging out with Finnick, so I'm like, he’s also, what, 19 and been traumatized his whole life, but I still hate Gale. And I think this movie really shows the ways he and Katniss diverge when it comes to trauma responses. And Gale gets locked into the cycle of violence one. And that is a very common thing that happens.
Krispin: Right. Yeah.
DL: I mean, that's literally why Gaza is happening is because extremely traumatized people are like, this is the only way to be safe. And it's devolved from there, you know, so I think Gale is a very interesting character for that.
Krispin: Yeah. Can we talk about what kind of therapy? Or am I jumping head?
DL: We’re getting there.
Krispin: Okay.
DL: Okay, I don't even know if I should include this. But do you want to know one of the not fun facts? I'll give you a fun fact about this movie and a not fun fact. Which one do you want to do first?
Krispin: The not fun fact.
DL: No! You chose wrong. I don't know how we're going to switch from each, so I'm going to do the not fun one first. So Plutarch Heavesnbee is played by Philip Seymour Hoffman. And he actually died while filming this movie.
Krispin: Oh, I thought it was during the second one.
DL: No, it was like one week left of filming this movie. He died of a drug overdose. And I remember being pretty impacted by his death. I would say both him and Heath Ledger like impacted me. And I just think it's very hard when there's people we love their acting, knowing it can come from a place of someone who's really struggling, somebody who's experienced a lot of trauma.
And addictions are a trauma response. It's to numb the pain. And in the Hunger Games, Hamish is the one who uses alcohol. And then there's some people in other districts who get addicted to morphling. And in District 13, they don't have any of that. So there's no way to be addicted. I mean, Haymitch would if he could.
Krispin: Yeah, he's very upset about that. He's vocal about that.
DL: And I feel like even the Capitol people, they don't have access to all these things that helped to numb the pain. And I just find it – you know, Heath Ledger died after filming Joker, Philip Seymour Hoffman died while filming this, and I don't know if there's a connection to the intensity and the real-worldness or if it's just things that happen. And people can also just genetically be disposed towards addiction. But it just made me feel really sad. And I do remember that being in the air, in the ether when this movie came out.
Krispin: Man, I thought that it happened in the second movie, and I was like, oh, good, this one was intense enough, we don't have to talk about that.
DL: I'm sorry!
Krispin: No, I mean, I'm glad you brought it up.
DL: It’s the reality though.
Krispin: Yes, totally. No, I wanted to mention it. I just got my timeline wrong, so.
DL: So that made me feel really sad. Okay. Fun fact!
Krispin: End it on a light note!
DL: I actually do think this is fun because of how much I hate Gale. Jennifer Lawrence would eat a bunch of garlic or a bunch of tuna before her kissing scenes with Liam Hemsworth.
Krispin: Why?
DL: To freak him out, to weird him out, and try and get him off his game. And just be a little butthead.
Krispin: Oh my gosh.
DL: So when they're all doing the red carpet circuits, because everybody was so into Katniss and Gale and Peeta, the love triangle, which isn't really a huge thing, it's just for marketing and all, but whatever. And they'd be like, how was it kissing Jennifer Lawrence? And he was like, super great, she made sure to eat like the most wretched lunch possible. I was like, that's pretty funny.
Krispin: That is funny, right? There are so many ways that you're like Katniss, and that is a way that you are like Jennifer Lawrence.
DL: I would've done that for sure. Also she gave Josh Hutchson a concussion in the second movie. She kicked him in the head.
Krispin: Really? Oh my gosh.
DL: Which is also just funny to me. Okay, now we're going to get to questions, comments, and whatever from listeners. This is from Jenna Dewitt. I think it's a great question. It says, what kind of therapy, somatic or otherwise would you recommend to Katniss, Finnick, Peeta, Gale, whoever. Because, something that's interesting, there are these stims that Katniss and Finnick both are utilizing inn this movie.
Katniss has the pearl that Peeta gave her, and she's, she fidgets with a lot, and then Finnick ties knots in a rope and then unties them, and then ties them again. And he actually teaches Katniss us how to do this when she's having a mental breakdown.
Krispin: Oh. Huh.
DL: So I think that's kind of interesting.
I'm wondering if you have any thoughts, these people knowing their situation, knowing how traumatized they are, what are some things you would recommend?
Krispin: Well, with Katniss, I would first of all suggest EMDR. Because EMDR is really helpful for specific events. It's helpful for other stuff too, but it's helpful for specific traumatic events and she's been through a lot of those. And so it would be something where you could clearly be like, okay, what's this bad memory and then let's process it through EMDR.
Finnick, I would suggest parts work. Or emotionally focused therapy for individuals. Because he has – I mean, they all have a lot of CPTSD. But thinking about him and his life in the Capitol and all these things, I think especially the parts work, because – I guess this is true for all of them – but I'm thinking about Finnick and his protective parts and the different ways that he shows up to survive and how getting in touch with those parts and working with those parts that have really kept him alive and surviving but that really probably disconnect him from his core self.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Uh, Peeta with where he's at right now, I'm assuming that they're going to, they would need to do some sort of sci-fi EMDR as well. It's not funny, but they're all trying to reassure Katniss, and then Beetee’s like, well, scientifically, fear is actually very difficult to–
And then Gale, I would also suggest parts work for Gale because there's this part of him that's like, all right, I'm going to protect, I'm going to turn to violence. There's this part of him that shows up that really likes that, that feels very unbalanced from other parts of himself, like compassion and empathy. And those parts are keeping him alive, but doing some work there I think would be helpful.
DL: Yeah. Well those are all things I knew you'd say. I think for me, basically for all trauma survivors, I'm like, you gotta find ways to find moments of safety in your body and get out of your head. I'm trying to think what they would have access to in District 13. And what's interesting is like there's no mental health anything in District 13.
They’re military, they've thought through the exact calories each person has to consume to keep going, and the roles they need to do. They do a history of nuclear warfare classes, they do all this stuff. Nothing about mental health. I'm like, okay, there needs to be communal grief processing groups.
There needs to be some body-based movement classes. There needs to be singing. Katniss sings a few times. It was like, you guys need to be doing some singing. You need to be doing some art, you to be doing some creative stuff. And one thing that kind of bothers me about Peeta's healing journey or whatever, is so much of it's focused on getting back to loving Katniss.
It's like, no Peeta. You need to love yourself. You know what I mean? Your role in life is not to be the perfect partner to Katniss. It's like to be you.
Krispin: And to be safe in your body.
DL: Yes. His body, which has literally been hijacked.
Krispin: Right
DL: So all of them kind of need that. I think specifically if they experience torture, that's going to be pretty difficult. But yeah, I think doing some of the communal work, body-based movement. I would hope people could learn how to become somatic therapists, help people be in their bodies, process emotions. That's what I would say. I don't know about a particular stim or anything like that. But dancing, singing, creating.
Krispin: Yeah, thinking about the stimming, stimming can mean a lot of different things. But I really like that idea of thinking through like, somatically, what does that mean.
DL: Yeah. That's what I would say. And guess what, that's what we all need to do right now, as we're living through a bizarro version of watching authoritarians wild out. And each one of us having to kind of figure out, what does resistance to this narrative and, and to the propaganda look like? I feel like it's hard to convey the amount of propaganda you are inundated with if you are both American and evangelical. Like if you have only one or the other, that's still a lot, but to have both? Oh my God.
Krispin: Right? Yeah.
DL: It's a lot of work to, to bust out of that.
Krispin: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. And I think going back to that part about feeling connected to your body, because so much of propaganda is in the imagined world, in your mind.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Anything else?
DL: No, I think Katniss is like – I feel so bad for her, and it's clear she doesn't want to be the symbol of the revolution. And it makes me think about how true that is for a lot of people. When people want to be the leader and the symbol, big red flag for me. But it just sucks. It just sucks that she still has no agency and autonomy and is trying to make a few decisions based out of this, but in reality, just keeps getting subsumed by these evil men. And I guess it's not just men, you know what I'm saying, right?
Krispin: Yes. Still patriarchal vibes.
DL: Yeah.
Krispin: Patriarchal vibes all around.
DL: That's true.
Krispin: Thanks y'all for hanging in there and listening. You could tell that this movie was just really devastating in a different way, so thanks for listening along as we process it. But it feels like really important stuff, unfortunately, that it's more than 10 years later. I mean, this is, feels like the repetition of human history. Maybe that's an intense thing to end on.
DL: Not for me. Maybe it is for you.
Krispin: Right.
DL: This is my world, Krispin. This is my world. Well, we're getting closer to publishing some really intense chapters for STRONGWILLED, which is probably also contributing to my existential crisis. But thanks for listening. I do want everyone to watch this movie. I do. So don't hear me in my freaking out. And by the way, I have a history of freaking the frick out while watching movies, as Krispin knows.
Krispin: Yes. Some of our first dates were like, hey, let's go see this movie. And then Danielle just being like, oh my God, how can I even live in this world?
DL: Yeah. Uh huh. That’s not great. But books don't impact me like that. Movies, it's just like I get sucked into them, and there's no difference between me and the character. That's not always fun. So it's back to the great British Bake off for me. I will be watching that this week. What are you going to be doing to take care of your mental health, Krispin?
Krispin: I have been trying to slow down and enjoy the little things. And I know that sounds so cliche, but you know, a lot of times when you're an adult and you're a parent, it just feels like trying to keep up with everything. And so this last weekend, I was like, I am just going to notice some things that I like to do. You and I got to go out yesterday, which was lovely. Not everyone gets that opportunity when you have kids. But, yeah, just trying to kind of take it slow. And, it's important to me this year that I have some time outside in the sun looking at the trees.
DL: Yeah. You love that.
Krispin: I do love that. So I don't, there have been times in my life where I'm like, just gotta get all this writing done. And I'm not going to do that this summer.
DL: That was great. This summer I'm going to be using my vibration plate, which I literally just stand on and jiggle and, and listen to Daft Punk. So that's how I'm coping. It's pretty great. You have the trees.
Krispin: Yes. And jazz.
DL: You sound like a better person than me.
Krispin: The trees. And jazz.
DL: And jazz. I jiggle it out. And listen to Daft Punk.
Krispin: I feel like Daft Punk and jazz have the same element, that same sort of stimming element of like a repeated motif.
DL: No, they don't. No! Jazz is all about not having a repeated motif. Right?
Krispin: Well, there are variations of it, but it can be just like seven minutes of variations of the same repeated musical structure.
DL: Oh, well maybe I'd like that kind of jazz. I don't know. Donald Miller took me off jazz for forever, if I'm being honest.
Krispin: Yes. Oh, Weezer on their, I think most latest album – most latest, haha – most recent album has a song called Blue like Jazz. I had to Google and, yeah, turns out at least from what I could garner from the internet, nothing to do with Donald Miller. I was worried for a minute.
DL: All my childhood heroes going down like flies. Anyhoo, thanks for listening everyone. We'll be back in just a little bit with the Mockingjay Part Two, and I will try not to be quite as depressed next time. But no promises!
Krispin: No promises.
DL: No promises.
Krispin: We'll be back soon. Thanks y'all for listening. Bye!
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