Krispin, thanks so much for your vulnerability. I resonate with so much of what you say about your dad. I, too, was always happier when he wasn't around. I was scared of my dad. He had an explosive temper, and I exploded back with tears and fury. My mom practiced the kind of spanking you were "supposed" to do--she did it calmly and never seemed like she wanted to do it. I can forgive her for that--she was doing what she was taught she should. But my dad used spanking as an excuse you to take out his anger (and to this day, I still don't understand where all that anger came from) on me and my sister, but especially me since I was the one who pushed back. Since he never hit me in the face or whatever, he could tell himself it wasn't abuse, it was just spanking.
One thing I hated the most was that he assumed he knew my motives. And he would tell them to me, and I would argue with him, because that's *not* why I did whatever I did. But he had zero interest in what I had to say about why I did things. He knew my motives and if I said otherwise, that was just backtalk. More reasons for spanking. I spent my whole childhood desperate to explain myself. Watching my sister let her kids explain themselves (even if they get punished afterwards) is very healing for me. To this day, I tend to overexplain everything and be very longwinded. It's ingrained so deep.
I knew my dad didn't like kids (thankfully, he does not work with them and never has), but it wasn't until I watched him with my niblings that I realized why. He likes babies (not taking care of them--my mom says he changed maybe three diapers in his whole life), but as soon as they start being able to assert their own personalities and desires, he stops liking them. If we had completely obeyed him, he would have loved being a dad. Even though...that's not what being a dad is.
So, so much of this comes back to ideas around fear and control. Some people are absolutely terrified of difference and so they insist that there is only one way to be--a man, a woman, a child, a person, a Christian. (I am hearing "there's only one way, and it is God's way" playing in the back of my head.) They refuse to believe that each person is an individual who has different needs. Instead, there insist that there is one script and if you follow it, your life will be perfect, and if you deviate from it, your life will be terrible. And if you think you're following it but your life isn't perfect, then you actually aren't following it.
So an entire generation of kids, starting in the late 70s and going through the early 2000s, were raised with this One Way and of course it didn't work. Of course it didn't! So now we're all in our 20s/30s/40s, and we're telling our parents that it didn't work and instead of realizing that this massive experiment in childrearing that they undertook was a failed one, they insist it's just that we, their children, who are bad. They cannot take any responsibility, because if they do, they'll realize there is more than one way to be a parent and a person and that will mean they don't have total control and that is the scariest thing in the world for them.
I know some people who really were happy in this kind of upbringing because their inherent desires were actually in line with the rules. They're still in the evangelical community, raising their kids just the way they were raised. But those of us who fought against the script, especially those of us who were queer in any way, spent our childhoods trying to scream, "This script doesn't work for me!" And no one listened to us. That's what being strongwilled is, I guess.
I’m half way through this podcast. Wow this was a tough listen for me! So many details from my childhood that my mind has tried to forget! It’s giving me openings into my brain and opportunities to process. The only times of intimacy were during punishment. Doing outings but getting in trouble for complaining. Yardwork.
-mannered, quiet man but he was seething with anger, and nobody could talk about it.” My evangelical dad was this way too. This struck such a nerve for me.
The number of similarities between Krispin’s story and my own are significant—white evangelical pastor’s kid, (pre-Dobson) RAP, oldest sibling, Christian college. Two things occurred to me after reading this morning’s post:
1) Role-playing. I, too, was meant to assume roles I was not emotionally connected to in any way. I was not John-Boy from the Waltons and I had zero interest in adopting that persona. Of greater importance was my repeating the words ‘personalrelationshipwithJesusChrist’ over and over when, in fact, there was nothing between us, so to speak. Just air. Among the myriad problems this led to, a big one was:
2) My inability to form authentic, honest, adult relationships with other people, especially ‘non-Christians’. I was playing a role in which I had the benefit of (terribly misplaced) epistemic certitude. How could I develop a relationship with someone in ‘the world’ when they would eventually be lost to perdition anyway? So I held people at arms length. You can guess how well that worked out for me.
To this day, I still don't understand how it's possible to have a relationship with a divine being. Even if God exists (and I'm agnostic--I genuinely don't know), literally how am I supposed to have a relationship with someone I cannot experience? SOMEONE EXPLAIN IT TO ME.
I struggled with this too. When I was a teen, my dad moved out and started a new family. When I met my soon-to-be-stepmom, she was pregnant with my brother and my parents were still legally married. I missed my dad so much. In my home, my dad was the more approachable, kinder, and fun parent (though still emotionally immature, I now know) and I missed him like crazy, it was incredibly painful. But what I would hear at youth group, Bible studies, and from Christian pers and adults was, “it’s sad your dad left, but rely on God. He’s you dad now.” And I definitely did this-I had some “real” experiences like speaking in tongues and being slain in the spirit, but I still missed my dad so much. It was definitely not the same, though I kept trying to connect to God, or at least my group of human beings abc couldn’t. I felt so blocked and lonely. Now I know that this was gaslighting and invalidation.
Speaking of reading old journals, I ran across some of mine along with church notes from back when I was closeted and evangelical, and it was really heartbreaking. I clearly thought of myself as the worst of the worst, no matter how much good I did, just because I was gay. Self-loathing and hopelessness are apparent on every page.
oof, it can be so rough to go back to old journals (we've been doing it, and trying to give ourselves extra care)... but I think such a good opportunity to give care to our younger selves.
thank you for sharing Krispin 💓 this really resonated a lot as a somatic practitioner who also really grew up deep in the church with RAP parenting, as a genderqueer, gender weird kid. so many pieces of this resonated and helped me see things about myself that I've missed. like my difficulty even knowing what I like. and how my stomach got tied in knots and I actually had a whole episode of vomiting when I was 18 and starting to "go against my parents" because I was so anxious about how my dad might react (and I was right, he threatened to throw me out of the house for getting serious with my then-boyfriend). hearing your story and seeing the connection in my own life is profound. I really appreciate your sharing and openness and sensitivity. 💓💓
Krispin, Thank you for sharing your story publicly. It’s something I’m not ready to do yet, but I feel a lot of gratitude and respect for the bravery and vulnerability you demonstrated. It definitely undoes some of my aloneness and that feels so important, especially coming from such a high control religious system. Thank you, it really matters.
I was struck by the idea of RAP creating such vulnerability for children to be abused. It feels obvious and profound to me. Lately, I’ve been sitting with the idea that adults were the authority to be obeyed no matter what and then sexuality was demonized. I feel like it created such a double bind for me; the adult/authority said don’t tell anyone and then there was also this feeling that I was somehow bad/sinful because I had transgressed the purity demands. It creates an impossible situation for a little kid who has to be “good” to stay safe. Such a recipe for deep rooted shame and secrecy.
Also, D.L. mentioned the journal loops and oh my god!!! I found one of my late teenage journals unpacking boxes this week and was struck by that looping concept- The painful feelings expressed (i.e. trauma), repentance over my sinful desires and failure to do enough, pleading with god to make me stronger and help feel joyful, and then always a resolve to follow god no matter what I feel…. On repeat… over and over again. So much angst! It’s painful to read and feels important to name.
yeah, definitely a set up where abuse can thrive. I'm glad that me sharing was helpful!
that loop thing is so helpful to see. Wish we could've seen it when it was happening, but I've found it so helpful to make some sense of my experience when I was younger.
Krispin, thanks so much for your vulnerability. I resonate with so much of what you say about your dad. I, too, was always happier when he wasn't around. I was scared of my dad. He had an explosive temper, and I exploded back with tears and fury. My mom practiced the kind of spanking you were "supposed" to do--she did it calmly and never seemed like she wanted to do it. I can forgive her for that--she was doing what she was taught she should. But my dad used spanking as an excuse you to take out his anger (and to this day, I still don't understand where all that anger came from) on me and my sister, but especially me since I was the one who pushed back. Since he never hit me in the face or whatever, he could tell himself it wasn't abuse, it was just spanking.
One thing I hated the most was that he assumed he knew my motives. And he would tell them to me, and I would argue with him, because that's *not* why I did whatever I did. But he had zero interest in what I had to say about why I did things. He knew my motives and if I said otherwise, that was just backtalk. More reasons for spanking. I spent my whole childhood desperate to explain myself. Watching my sister let her kids explain themselves (even if they get punished afterwards) is very healing for me. To this day, I tend to overexplain everything and be very longwinded. It's ingrained so deep.
I knew my dad didn't like kids (thankfully, he does not work with them and never has), but it wasn't until I watched him with my niblings that I realized why. He likes babies (not taking care of them--my mom says he changed maybe three diapers in his whole life), but as soon as they start being able to assert their own personalities and desires, he stops liking them. If we had completely obeyed him, he would have loved being a dad. Even though...that's not what being a dad is.
So, so much of this comes back to ideas around fear and control. Some people are absolutely terrified of difference and so they insist that there is only one way to be--a man, a woman, a child, a person, a Christian. (I am hearing "there's only one way, and it is God's way" playing in the back of my head.) They refuse to believe that each person is an individual who has different needs. Instead, there insist that there is one script and if you follow it, your life will be perfect, and if you deviate from it, your life will be terrible. And if you think you're following it but your life isn't perfect, then you actually aren't following it.
So an entire generation of kids, starting in the late 70s and going through the early 2000s, were raised with this One Way and of course it didn't work. Of course it didn't! So now we're all in our 20s/30s/40s, and we're telling our parents that it didn't work and instead of realizing that this massive experiment in childrearing that they undertook was a failed one, they insist it's just that we, their children, who are bad. They cannot take any responsibility, because if they do, they'll realize there is more than one way to be a parent and a person and that will mean they don't have total control and that is the scariest thing in the world for them.
I know some people who really were happy in this kind of upbringing because their inherent desires were actually in line with the rules. They're still in the evangelical community, raising their kids just the way they were raised. But those of us who fought against the script, especially those of us who were queer in any way, spent our childhoods trying to scream, "This script doesn't work for me!" And no one listened to us. That's what being strongwilled is, I guess.
oof, yeah Dobson tells parents to not engage with kids when they talk about their motives. Really prevents healthy problem-solving in relationships!
I’m half way through this podcast. Wow this was a tough listen for me! So many details from my childhood that my mind has tried to forget! It’s giving me openings into my brain and opportunities to process. The only times of intimacy were during punishment. Doing outings but getting in trouble for complaining. Yardwork.
“He was the most mild
-mannered, quiet man but he was seething with anger, and nobody could talk about it.” My evangelical dad was this way too. This struck such a nerve for me.
The number of similarities between Krispin’s story and my own are significant—white evangelical pastor’s kid, (pre-Dobson) RAP, oldest sibling, Christian college. Two things occurred to me after reading this morning’s post:
1) Role-playing. I, too, was meant to assume roles I was not emotionally connected to in any way. I was not John-Boy from the Waltons and I had zero interest in adopting that persona. Of greater importance was my repeating the words ‘personalrelationshipwithJesusChrist’ over and over when, in fact, there was nothing between us, so to speak. Just air. Among the myriad problems this led to, a big one was:
2) My inability to form authentic, honest, adult relationships with other people, especially ‘non-Christians’. I was playing a role in which I had the benefit of (terribly misplaced) epistemic certitude. How could I develop a relationship with someone in ‘the world’ when they would eventually be lost to perdition anyway? So I held people at arms length. You can guess how well that worked out for me.
oh my gosh, the repeating ‘personalrelationshipwithJesusChrist’ part. 100%
To this day, I still don't understand how it's possible to have a relationship with a divine being. Even if God exists (and I'm agnostic--I genuinely don't know), literally how am I supposed to have a relationship with someone I cannot experience? SOMEONE EXPLAIN IT TO ME.
I struggled with this too. When I was a teen, my dad moved out and started a new family. When I met my soon-to-be-stepmom, she was pregnant with my brother and my parents were still legally married. I missed my dad so much. In my home, my dad was the more approachable, kinder, and fun parent (though still emotionally immature, I now know) and I missed him like crazy, it was incredibly painful. But what I would hear at youth group, Bible studies, and from Christian pers and adults was, “it’s sad your dad left, but rely on God. He’s you dad now.” And I definitely did this-I had some “real” experiences like speaking in tongues and being slain in the spirit, but I still missed my dad so much. It was definitely not the same, though I kept trying to connect to God, or at least my group of human beings abc couldn’t. I felt so blocked and lonely. Now I know that this was gaslighting and invalidation.
Speaking of reading old journals, I ran across some of mine along with church notes from back when I was closeted and evangelical, and it was really heartbreaking. I clearly thought of myself as the worst of the worst, no matter how much good I did, just because I was gay. Self-loathing and hopelessness are apparent on every page.
oof, it can be so rough to go back to old journals (we've been doing it, and trying to give ourselves extra care)... but I think such a good opportunity to give care to our younger selves.
thank you for sharing Krispin 💓 this really resonated a lot as a somatic practitioner who also really grew up deep in the church with RAP parenting, as a genderqueer, gender weird kid. so many pieces of this resonated and helped me see things about myself that I've missed. like my difficulty even knowing what I like. and how my stomach got tied in knots and I actually had a whole episode of vomiting when I was 18 and starting to "go against my parents" because I was so anxious about how my dad might react (and I was right, he threatened to throw me out of the house for getting serious with my then-boyfriend). hearing your story and seeing the connection in my own life is profound. I really appreciate your sharing and openness and sensitivity. 💓💓
I'm so glad it was helpful! I think there's so much to explore and put together when we think about growing up with RAP, all the different elements.
Krispin, Thank you for sharing your story publicly. It’s something I’m not ready to do yet, but I feel a lot of gratitude and respect for the bravery and vulnerability you demonstrated. It definitely undoes some of my aloneness and that feels so important, especially coming from such a high control religious system. Thank you, it really matters.
I was struck by the idea of RAP creating such vulnerability for children to be abused. It feels obvious and profound to me. Lately, I’ve been sitting with the idea that adults were the authority to be obeyed no matter what and then sexuality was demonized. I feel like it created such a double bind for me; the adult/authority said don’t tell anyone and then there was also this feeling that I was somehow bad/sinful because I had transgressed the purity demands. It creates an impossible situation for a little kid who has to be “good” to stay safe. Such a recipe for deep rooted shame and secrecy.
Also, D.L. mentioned the journal loops and oh my god!!! I found one of my late teenage journals unpacking boxes this week and was struck by that looping concept- The painful feelings expressed (i.e. trauma), repentance over my sinful desires and failure to do enough, pleading with god to make me stronger and help feel joyful, and then always a resolve to follow god no matter what I feel…. On repeat… over and over again. So much angst! It’s painful to read and feels important to name.
yeah, definitely a set up where abuse can thrive. I'm glad that me sharing was helpful!
that loop thing is so helpful to see. Wish we could've seen it when it was happening, but I've found it so helpful to make some sense of my experience when I was younger.
Thank you so much for sharing, Krispin. I'm so so grateful to hear your story.