"It’s during this season that they learn whether or not they can trust their own desires, or if following them will lead to pain and shame."
DL, you once again nailed it. This is precisely what I'm dealing with now,in my 40s. A recent convo with my partner made me realize that I've been dissociated from Desire for ages. I wouldn't be surprised if she was banished when I was a toddler. I am afraid to say what I want in any aspect of life, and often I truly don't know what I want at all. It's like my Desire has been buried deep in a mountain cave, with layers of protection around her - fences, barbed wire, armed guards, the works. She's always been there but it's been safer to keep her far from my life and never acknowledge her. I'm slowly learning to check in with my body and my inner child(ren) to listen to what they want. It feels like so many things are tied to this.... It's going to be a long path to bring her out into the light!
Well then, a tip of the hat to Krispin! I studied psych in college but wasn't ready to make connections between what Erikson was describing and how different it was to the way I was raised. Amazing to make those connections now!
At the moment my mental image of Desire is a very young child, trailing around after my True Self, occasionally tugging on a hem or sleeve, asking to be heard. After all this time, I don't even know that she needs to get the things she wants, she just wants someone to know the want is there. I've promised her that I'll listen whenever she wants to whisper to me.
I was so glad that this connected, and I love all these ways of thinking about desire, and what happens to our internal world when desire is shamed. Thanks so much for sharing!
My spidey-senses were going off this morning reading the opening so I decided to wait until after work to finish it. I’m glad I did because this rocked my shit real hard. My mother has straight up told me that she is so confused as to why I have so much anxiety and why I’ve struggled with confidence and indecision. But suggesting it might have something to do with the messages I received as a child from my family is completely unacceptable and ungrateful.
I feel like the 2 biggest time periods that the church focuses on are the toddler years and teenage years. I learned about Erikson when I studied educational psychology and I couldn't help but think about why churches target these groups. These are huge milestones with the vulnerability of the parent (toddlers are hard and we're looking for anything to help) and the vulnerability of the teenager (teenagers are hard and parents are looking for help) when they are exploring the world and new identities.
ooh, that is such a good point, and so true -- fits so many of the stories Dobson tells about "harassed parents" who are drawn to his teachings... I also saw a lot of that reflected when I looked through amazon reviews, parents of two-year-olds who were like, "I was at my wit's end." It's so sad that they didn't pick up a better book.
I don’t even know how to express how helpful this is. I’ve had Eriksen on my list to explore more regarding RAP and you just made it so clear. Thank you!
yeah, I think it's so helpful to have a model of what healthy development could look like (like Erikson and Mr. Rogers) to recognize the impacts of growing up under RAP!
I remember as a preschooler watching another kid at school doing something that I wanted to do, and thinking in my head that I didn't deserve to want things. So of course I never asked.
Fast forward, and after years of therapy which started well into adulthood, I now know more of what I like & what I want. It's still amazing to me that if I ask, I usually get it, and that no one thinks I'm being selfish or sinful when I state that I want something.
"Simply allowing children to develop their own individuality and autonomy in the toddler years and beyond put the white patriarchal Christian vision of society at risk. When children are offered autonomy and individuality, they make choices for themselves: career decisions, whether they want to continue in their parents’ religious tradition, how they want to live out their sexual orientation or gender expression, and whether they want to continue upholding systemic racism and misogyny. If children were encouraged to develop autonomy—of the mind and of the body—then the conservative hopes for the future looked bleak."
Without breaking our spirits, they *knew* we would choose paths that lead to life instead of upholding the death cult of Christianity. I so strongly remember my father telling me many times, "I WILL break your will." I'm 41, I've been in therapy and working on this stuff for 12 years, and still recovering from the collapse of my sense of self as a child. It's required a lot of breakages with my parents and I've finally been able to go full no-contact with my father.
Thank you so much for naming this philosophy and framework -- it's helping me so much. Sending love to everyone else out there who survived this kind of upbringing. We're hurting, but we made it out!
Your comment was eye opening. First what stood out to me is how you named our freedom to choose as LIFE! Yes!!! Again I (we) was taught that the church teachings were life and worldly things were death. I am confronted repeatedly with the reality that I was taught exactly opposite of reality. I feel deeply betrayed and lied to. I also sometimes feel empathy towards family members who never challenged those lies.
The other part that stood out is how your dad actually said that he would break your will. I’ve blocked out a lot of memories. But I vaguely remember thinking to myself that I would never let my dad break my will. What an odd thing to think without context. I don’t remember him actually saying that he would break it. Reading that your dad actually said it makes me wonder if my dad actually did say it and it’s locked in a blocked memory. I may have blocked it because I ended up giving in and letting him break it for fear of death.
I don't remember my parents saying they'd break my will, but I do remember reading in the Strong Willed Child book that they were supposed to break my will, that it would be sinful not to. So I just had to...let them? I guess? Or I'd be sinning too?
I’ve been working through a specific aspect in my relationships. Whenever we go out to go something it feels like it always ends up being something that my friend or husband chooses. I end up asking myself “how did I get here again?” I acknowledge that I must be training them to do that with me even though it’s not what I want.
I end up feeling angry with them but yet again it’s Jimmy’s fault.
It's kind of wild to have a bit of proof when it comes to why so many of us struggle with autonomy, self-will, desires, and even preferences. Long after we deconstruct the systems we were born into, the impacts linger on.
yeah, it just becomes such a normal pattern to defer to others... and it takes so much work to move into another way of being in the world after decades of practice. We deserved so much better earlier in life.
Shame is insidious. I’m becoming more aware of it. For example, instead of leaving space for my excited teens to tell me how their DnD game at the library went, I said, “Next time, I will drop you off, and Dad will pick you up, so I don’t have to wait in the car.” One child isn’t bothered by it; it probably sounds like a good plan to them, and they don’t read any deeper into it, I don’t think. The other child, however, gets very quiet and internalizes the shame of “making my mother wait in the hot car for three hours.” They did not make me choose that for myself. I could have chosen something that would not have caused me suffering, like hanging out in an air conditioned space. I did not have to say anything at all about my plan in this way. I am trying hard to see when I am doing these harmful things, take responsibility for my own suffering, and not share/push off my suffering onto my kids. I am noticing that I do this A LOT.
Y'all hit the nail on the head every time with these articles. You've been putting words to everything I've experienced in the Evangelical world. This kind of parenting has created a whole host of problems for me. I struggle with standing up for myself and setting boundaries because that sort of thing wasn't an option and was labeled as 'talking back' or 'rebellion' or 'sin-nature'. I struggle with expressing my feelings in a productive and healthy way. I've made a lot of progress but it's a slow healing. I struggle with making decisions for myself because my way was always bad and I had to defer to an adult's will instead. I spent so much of my life dissociating from myself and defaulting to someone else's wants and desires. Since de-converting from Evangelical Christianity I've been able to take a step back and really address this complicated amalgamation of RAP, Purity Culture, Calvinism, patriarchal, fundamentalist ideas. It gave me terrible coping mechanisms and no real concrete tools to help me navigate life as an adult. It sucks that so much of my life was dominated by it and then healing from it. However! I'm much more optimistic about my future and I've had some of the best years of my life despite untangling the baggage. Thank you thank you thank you for undergoing this project!
I'm curious how this developmental view fits into non-Western family systems that tend to be less individualistic, more deferential to ancestors and older families, less differentiation between the self and the family, etc. How we view self-hood and autonomy is very shaded by our Western, individualist understanding, etc., which is merely different and not absolutely preferential or superior to non-Western views.
What we are talking about with religious authoritarians in the US is a distinctly western phenomenon -- creating people who are not individualistic in how they relate to power structures / authority but who know their place in the hierarchy and never ever question it (hello, fascism!). There is of course a lot of discussion to be had about developmental stages and how people across the world view them, but I don't think it is as simple as calling all westerners individualistic and that non-western folks don't prioritize autonomy. The protests in Hong Kong in 2019-2020 were a fascinating example of encouraging people to utilize their autonomy within a collective organizing action, and this is being modeled worldwide (including in the US) among the younger folks.
like DL said, we're talking about the US context of white evangelicalism, but a good starting place for engagement might be a book titled Intrusive Parenting edited by Barber -- we mentioned their term in our first post, and there's analysis in that book is much more diverse in its scope.
Feel like a pertinent dynamic politically too is the sense that individual autonomy often brushes up against collective solidarity---the atomization of individuals, etc.
"It’s during this season that they learn whether or not they can trust their own desires, or if following them will lead to pain and shame."
DL, you once again nailed it. This is precisely what I'm dealing with now,in my 40s. A recent convo with my partner made me realize that I've been dissociated from Desire for ages. I wouldn't be surprised if she was banished when I was a toddler. I am afraid to say what I want in any aspect of life, and often I truly don't know what I want at all. It's like my Desire has been buried deep in a mountain cave, with layers of protection around her - fences, barbed wire, armed guards, the works. She's always been there but it's been safer to keep her far from my life and never acknowledge her. I'm slowly learning to check in with my body and my inner child(ren) to listen to what they want. It feels like so many things are tied to this.... It's going to be a long path to bring her out into the light!
Ha ha this chapter is actually Krispin Mayfield's baby! He has always been obsessed with Erik Erickson and the developmental stages :)
I LOVE the tender way you write about desire. I'm going to be thinking on this all day!
Well then, a tip of the hat to Krispin! I studied psych in college but wasn't ready to make connections between what Erikson was describing and how different it was to the way I was raised. Amazing to make those connections now!
At the moment my mental image of Desire is a very young child, trailing around after my True Self, occasionally tugging on a hem or sleeve, asking to be heard. After all this time, I don't even know that she needs to get the things she wants, she just wants someone to know the want is there. I've promised her that I'll listen whenever she wants to whisper to me.
I was so glad that this connected, and I love all these ways of thinking about desire, and what happens to our internal world when desire is shamed. Thanks so much for sharing!
My spidey-senses were going off this morning reading the opening so I decided to wait until after work to finish it. I’m glad I did because this rocked my shit real hard. My mother has straight up told me that she is so confused as to why I have so much anxiety and why I’ve struggled with confidence and indecision. But suggesting it might have something to do with the messages I received as a child from my family is completely unacceptable and ungrateful.
oh my god, it's the same child-blaming dynamic all grown up, that's really terrible. thanks for sharing!
This hurts my heart so deeply and makes me mad as hell.
Well, fuck. Needed this today.
:)
I feel like the 2 biggest time periods that the church focuses on are the toddler years and teenage years. I learned about Erikson when I studied educational psychology and I couldn't help but think about why churches target these groups. These are huge milestones with the vulnerability of the parent (toddlers are hard and we're looking for anything to help) and the vulnerability of the teenager (teenagers are hard and parents are looking for help) when they are exploring the world and new identities.
ooh, that is such a good point, and so true -- fits so many of the stories Dobson tells about "harassed parents" who are drawn to his teachings... I also saw a lot of that reflected when I looked through amazon reviews, parents of two-year-olds who were like, "I was at my wit's end." It's so sad that they didn't pick up a better book.
And that they were told the better books would be bad for them and their kids.
I don’t even know how to express how helpful this is. I’ve had Eriksen on my list to explore more regarding RAP and you just made it so clear. Thank you!
yeah, I think it's so helpful to have a model of what healthy development could look like (like Erikson and Mr. Rogers) to recognize the impacts of growing up under RAP!
I remember as a preschooler watching another kid at school doing something that I wanted to do, and thinking in my head that I didn't deserve to want things. So of course I never asked.
Fast forward, and after years of therapy which started well into adulthood, I now know more of what I like & what I want. It's still amazing to me that if I ask, I usually get it, and that no one thinks I'm being selfish or sinful when I state that I want something.
This paragraph says everything:
"Simply allowing children to develop their own individuality and autonomy in the toddler years and beyond put the white patriarchal Christian vision of society at risk. When children are offered autonomy and individuality, they make choices for themselves: career decisions, whether they want to continue in their parents’ religious tradition, how they want to live out their sexual orientation or gender expression, and whether they want to continue upholding systemic racism and misogyny. If children were encouraged to develop autonomy—of the mind and of the body—then the conservative hopes for the future looked bleak."
Without breaking our spirits, they *knew* we would choose paths that lead to life instead of upholding the death cult of Christianity. I so strongly remember my father telling me many times, "I WILL break your will." I'm 41, I've been in therapy and working on this stuff for 12 years, and still recovering from the collapse of my sense of self as a child. It's required a lot of breakages with my parents and I've finally been able to go full no-contact with my father.
Thank you so much for naming this philosophy and framework -- it's helping me so much. Sending love to everyone else out there who survived this kind of upbringing. We're hurting, but we made it out!
Your comment was eye opening. First what stood out to me is how you named our freedom to choose as LIFE! Yes!!! Again I (we) was taught that the church teachings were life and worldly things were death. I am confronted repeatedly with the reality that I was taught exactly opposite of reality. I feel deeply betrayed and lied to. I also sometimes feel empathy towards family members who never challenged those lies.
The other part that stood out is how your dad actually said that he would break your will. I’ve blocked out a lot of memories. But I vaguely remember thinking to myself that I would never let my dad break my will. What an odd thing to think without context. I don’t remember him actually saying that he would break it. Reading that your dad actually said it makes me wonder if my dad actually did say it and it’s locked in a blocked memory. I may have blocked it because I ended up giving in and letting him break it for fear of death.
I don't remember my parents saying they'd break my will, but I do remember reading in the Strong Willed Child book that they were supposed to break my will, that it would be sinful not to. So I just had to...let them? I guess? Or I'd be sinning too?
I’ve been working through a specific aspect in my relationships. Whenever we go out to go something it feels like it always ends up being something that my friend or husband chooses. I end up asking myself “how did I get here again?” I acknowledge that I must be training them to do that with me even though it’s not what I want.
I end up feeling angry with them but yet again it’s Jimmy’s fault.
It's kind of wild to have a bit of proof when it comes to why so many of us struggle with autonomy, self-will, desires, and even preferences. Long after we deconstruct the systems we were born into, the impacts linger on.
yeah, it just becomes such a normal pattern to defer to others... and it takes so much work to move into another way of being in the world after decades of practice. We deserved so much better earlier in life.
Shame is insidious. I’m becoming more aware of it. For example, instead of leaving space for my excited teens to tell me how their DnD game at the library went, I said, “Next time, I will drop you off, and Dad will pick you up, so I don’t have to wait in the car.” One child isn’t bothered by it; it probably sounds like a good plan to them, and they don’t read any deeper into it, I don’t think. The other child, however, gets very quiet and internalizes the shame of “making my mother wait in the hot car for three hours.” They did not make me choose that for myself. I could have chosen something that would not have caused me suffering, like hanging out in an air conditioned space. I did not have to say anything at all about my plan in this way. I am trying hard to see when I am doing these harmful things, take responsibility for my own suffering, and not share/push off my suffering onto my kids. I am noticing that I do this A LOT.
Y'all hit the nail on the head every time with these articles. You've been putting words to everything I've experienced in the Evangelical world. This kind of parenting has created a whole host of problems for me. I struggle with standing up for myself and setting boundaries because that sort of thing wasn't an option and was labeled as 'talking back' or 'rebellion' or 'sin-nature'. I struggle with expressing my feelings in a productive and healthy way. I've made a lot of progress but it's a slow healing. I struggle with making decisions for myself because my way was always bad and I had to defer to an adult's will instead. I spent so much of my life dissociating from myself and defaulting to someone else's wants and desires. Since de-converting from Evangelical Christianity I've been able to take a step back and really address this complicated amalgamation of RAP, Purity Culture, Calvinism, patriarchal, fundamentalist ideas. It gave me terrible coping mechanisms and no real concrete tools to help me navigate life as an adult. It sucks that so much of my life was dominated by it and then healing from it. However! I'm much more optimistic about my future and I've had some of the best years of my life despite untangling the baggage. Thank you thank you thank you for undergoing this project!
I'm curious how this developmental view fits into non-Western family systems that tend to be less individualistic, more deferential to ancestors and older families, less differentiation between the self and the family, etc. How we view self-hood and autonomy is very shaded by our Western, individualist understanding, etc., which is merely different and not absolutely preferential or superior to non-Western views.
What we are talking about with religious authoritarians in the US is a distinctly western phenomenon -- creating people who are not individualistic in how they relate to power structures / authority but who know their place in the hierarchy and never ever question it (hello, fascism!). There is of course a lot of discussion to be had about developmental stages and how people across the world view them, but I don't think it is as simple as calling all westerners individualistic and that non-western folks don't prioritize autonomy. The protests in Hong Kong in 2019-2020 were a fascinating example of encouraging people to utilize their autonomy within a collective organizing action, and this is being modeled worldwide (including in the US) among the younger folks.
like DL said, we're talking about the US context of white evangelicalism, but a good starting place for engagement might be a book titled Intrusive Parenting edited by Barber -- we mentioned their term in our first post, and there's analysis in that book is much more diverse in its scope.
Feel like a pertinent dynamic politically too is the sense that individual autonomy often brushes up against collective solidarity---the atomization of individuals, etc.