When I went no contact with my parents in 2010 it was what had to happen because of all the reasons you have talked about. I was feeling so guilty about it and went to see a counselor and they recommended the book Boundaries and I pretty much laughed my way through it! I knew there was no way my parents would be able to handle boundaries. It had to be no contact. They would try and contact me and make me feel bad and it was just awful. I know most of you totally understand what I am saying! Once in a while I would allow them to visit for an hour to see my kids. Why couldn't they just be reasonable?! It was always that it was my fault and they never took any responsibility for anything. I wasn't happy that I had to make this choice but I felt like they gave me no choice. They have both passed away and I am just so relieved to not have that take over my life and cause so much guilt. I really feel for all of you who are still dealing with such difficult parents. <3
yeah, the choice thing -- it's like, you have to make the choice, but at the same time, you're responding to a dynamic they created. I'm glad you've found relief. I feel the same thing, and it's just really nice to have that room in your life to breath
"...while others notice that setting boundaries triggers anxiety or sadness in their parent, and they feel a heavy responsibility for rescuing their parents from that emotional state."
This is 1,000% me, and reading this I just realized that I've spent the bulk of my time with my therapist over the last several months trying to explain and game out my parents' counter moves. Even after abandoning hope of setting and keeping boundaries and going full no-contact after the election, the discussion has continued because I know my silence is making them sad, and if they're sad on account of me, then that makes me the bad guy. And I am hard-wired to not want to be the bad guy and to make amends if I discover I am hurting someone. Thus, any contact I have with my parents will automatically have me starting out on my back foot, apologizing, meeting their emotional needs while ignoring my own, and in the process dissolving all my efforts to establish my autonomy and boundaries. It's a trap, and they've executed it to perfection many times.
Finally my therapist asked me: "So what if you are the bad guy?"
(I know he meant it as me being the bad guy *in their eyes*, not literal villainy.) I didn't have a good answer in the moment and I still don't have one. It's just hard to turn off that sense of responsibility for their emotional needs even after I've blocked them from communicating those with me. I get the intent behind the question though: at some point I'll have to grow comfortable with not caring what they think of me and fully embrace the autonomy I've worked so hard to carve out for myself. The irony is that my authentic self is a far better person than the ideal self they created for me, so if they can only see badness there, that's their problem.
What you’re saying reminds me that some family members need a bad guy, and they’ve chosen me to play that role. They have given me this role, and they are adamant about me playing this role. I have tried for years to get a different role, but this is the part I have been given to play. I’m the bad guy whether I’m there or not, so I’ll choose not. I don’t foresee myself ever feeling comfortable with any of it. Right now, I’m still in the thick of it all.
Ugh. It's almost like they *need* a villain in order to maintain the fiction that they're good and innocent no matter what (and also to reinforce their feelings of moral superiority). And there's probably a lot of narcissism behind it as well--they need everyone to like them, and if their own child keeps denying them what they think they're owed, they'll eventually turn on them. It's so much easier for them to wallow in self-righteous bitterness and blame the child than to do some self-reflection.
This is timely as I’m about to communicate some boundaries to my MIL. As I read this chapter I noticed that my body was going in shut down mode (fatigue, weariness, a weight in my chest) after a tense and reactive morning. I understand now that my body is just trying to keep us safe. I’m going to mull over the list of countermoves to not be surprised by her response when I finally communicate my truth.
The list of counter moves is very helpful! I have experienced all of them! I wrote them down during my phone conversations with my ultra-religious mother. Now I can pop them into counter-moves buckets, which makes it less stressful and even a bit satisfying. I can now say, “Oh, I see what you were doing there.”
For years, I felt compelled to JADE—justify, argue, defend, and explain, and I’ve tried to recognize that urge and stop, but just doing that didn’t get to the reason behind why I was compelled to JADE.
I won’t have many new comments to sort now, because after the Thanksgiving visit, I won’t be going back in the foreseeable future. I haven’t called in months, and no one has called me, so.
The traditional Christmas Day lunch instituted by my mom forever ago is planned. Same time. Same place. Same basic menu. I have been notified. I have messaged back that we are having a quiet Christmas this year. That’s all I messaged, and I have gotten no response. No response means that I can have my reasons sorted in my head but no one cares what they are. I’m either in or out, and I’ve chosen out. Yes, it hurts, but I can learn to deal with that hurt in a healthy way.
Thank you for all the effort you’re putting into this project. The way you explain it makes so much more sense than anything else I’ve found.
Thank you as always. Currently trying to navigate this. It never helps to express my perspective, disagreement or boundaries. Because my parents are never wrong because they “hear from God” and are always right. And if I’m upset about something it’s because I’m wrong or I need to fix something. I’m just naturally estranged from them by chosen physical distance and limited communication. I don’t hear from my dad at all, I’m guessing because I don’t think he’s such a great or even good person anymore. I wish it was different so my daughter had healthy grandparents. That’s probably the hardest part. ❤️
This is so helpful, especially the part about not having to share your process. I don’t know about ya’ll, but I was raised to believe even “white lies,” were egregious, terrible sins, and you had to tell the complete truth about everything, or you were sinning. That has been hard for me to overcome, especially as I often had to find alternative ways to discuss issues I had or to set boundaries.
I would say something like, “I think it’s funny when a parent shushes a one year old, like, lol they’re a baby, they don’t get it,” because expressing how I really felt—terrified for the child, angry, upset, would just get me a lecture about being too sensitive and judgmental—or, “I’m busy with work/can’t leave my dog,” when I didn’t want to go to a church where I’d have to witness corporal punishment of 6+ month old babies excused by everyone in the congregation, and excused by the family with the idea that “some babies deserve spankings.” That still makes me rage thinking about it, tbh.
I did finally lose it and tell my parents exactly how I felt about that church and of course my mom passive aggressively said ok while judging me and accusing me of never wanting to leave my house— though she was also talking to my sister who didn’t want to wear masks when that was mandated so that message could’ve been for her, but I don’t know. So, yeah. Now I just say, I’m busy, and the guilt about my lack of specifics/not telling all the reasons, is getting better.
ETA because they helped me pay for my house—I had to have a co-signer on the loan because…..my student loans or lack of long term credit or something, I don’t remember lol— and because they sometimes come over and drop things off for me, my parents do you have a garage door opener and a key to my house. I will say they have gotten better on their own about not just dropping by unannounced and I don’t really know why because I didn’t say anything to them about it but they have so that’s been nice. They also aren’t as passive aggressive about my dog who I am raising with fear, free and positive reinforcement methods. My mom thinks I just don’t trust my dog not to grab things she shouldn’t have and so I usually end up telling her OK fine when nova gets something that she isn’t supposed to have you can get away from her and in my head, I’m thinking and if nova bites you again what she has before don’t get mad at me because I’m trying to prevent it and you’re acting like I’m crazy this is the same mom who got really mad at nova for biting her when mom ignored nova‘s boundaries and Dad who said that they weren’t gonna drive me anywhere if nova didn’t stop biting my mom so you know. But I’m the crazy one for not trusting them to no longer feel that way about my dog. I don’t know sometimes I think about. changing my locks and recoding the garage door, but I haven’t yet. Maybe one day.
"Enmeshment — or the lack of personal sense of self — was actively encouraged in these families."
I needed to comment bc I've been coming to terms with this more, and I've done some research. This enmeshment is a tell-tale sign of covert incest / emotional incest, in which there's no sexual contact or even physical boundaries being broken neccesarily. It's the similar erosion of emotional boundaries of a responsible party and a child: parents seeking reassurance, discussing financial troubles and giving the child guilt for their needs, expectations of the child to be an emotionally available friend rather than an actual child, etc.
I only bring this up because I was confused and troubled by this behavior but didn't have a word for it. When I was young I knew what my bio parents argued about, who they had gripes with, and felt responsible to be their sounding board. And all this fucked up my ability to make boundaries, understand why/where boundaries should be, and eroded my sense of self because we'd always shared everything with each other. Incest is a tough word to identify with but it makes sense why I have such trouble with these kinds of relationships
Chronic forgetting of boundaries is the main move in my family. Followed by apologies and monologues on their good intentions, occasionally a side of "so these boundaries are STILL important to you then?" It's so hard to call them out on, because punishing an honest mistake makes me feel like the bad guy, and sometimes they try dramatically so it's not like no progress is being made, right? But also, how are you this bad at remembering?
When I went no contact with my parents in 2010 it was what had to happen because of all the reasons you have talked about. I was feeling so guilty about it and went to see a counselor and they recommended the book Boundaries and I pretty much laughed my way through it! I knew there was no way my parents would be able to handle boundaries. It had to be no contact. They would try and contact me and make me feel bad and it was just awful. I know most of you totally understand what I am saying! Once in a while I would allow them to visit for an hour to see my kids. Why couldn't they just be reasonable?! It was always that it was my fault and they never took any responsibility for anything. I wasn't happy that I had to make this choice but I felt like they gave me no choice. They have both passed away and I am just so relieved to not have that take over my life and cause so much guilt. I really feel for all of you who are still dealing with such difficult parents. <3
yeah, the choice thing -- it's like, you have to make the choice, but at the same time, you're responding to a dynamic they created. I'm glad you've found relief. I feel the same thing, and it's just really nice to have that room in your life to breath
"...while others notice that setting boundaries triggers anxiety or sadness in their parent, and they feel a heavy responsibility for rescuing their parents from that emotional state."
This is 1,000% me, and reading this I just realized that I've spent the bulk of my time with my therapist over the last several months trying to explain and game out my parents' counter moves. Even after abandoning hope of setting and keeping boundaries and going full no-contact after the election, the discussion has continued because I know my silence is making them sad, and if they're sad on account of me, then that makes me the bad guy. And I am hard-wired to not want to be the bad guy and to make amends if I discover I am hurting someone. Thus, any contact I have with my parents will automatically have me starting out on my back foot, apologizing, meeting their emotional needs while ignoring my own, and in the process dissolving all my efforts to establish my autonomy and boundaries. It's a trap, and they've executed it to perfection many times.
Finally my therapist asked me: "So what if you are the bad guy?"
(I know he meant it as me being the bad guy *in their eyes*, not literal villainy.) I didn't have a good answer in the moment and I still don't have one. It's just hard to turn off that sense of responsibility for their emotional needs even after I've blocked them from communicating those with me. I get the intent behind the question though: at some point I'll have to grow comfortable with not caring what they think of me and fully embrace the autonomy I've worked so hard to carve out for myself. The irony is that my authentic self is a far better person than the ideal self they created for me, so if they can only see badness there, that's their problem.
What you’re saying reminds me that some family members need a bad guy, and they’ve chosen me to play that role. They have given me this role, and they are adamant about me playing this role. I have tried for years to get a different role, but this is the part I have been given to play. I’m the bad guy whether I’m there or not, so I’ll choose not. I don’t foresee myself ever feeling comfortable with any of it. Right now, I’m still in the thick of it all.
Ugh. It's almost like they *need* a villain in order to maintain the fiction that they're good and innocent no matter what (and also to reinforce their feelings of moral superiority). And there's probably a lot of narcissism behind it as well--they need everyone to like them, and if their own child keeps denying them what they think they're owed, they'll eventually turn on them. It's so much easier for them to wallow in self-righteous bitterness and blame the child than to do some self-reflection.
This is timely as I’m about to communicate some boundaries to my MIL. As I read this chapter I noticed that my body was going in shut down mode (fatigue, weariness, a weight in my chest) after a tense and reactive morning. I understand now that my body is just trying to keep us safe. I’m going to mull over the list of countermoves to not be surprised by her response when I finally communicate my truth.
The list of counter moves is very helpful! I have experienced all of them! I wrote them down during my phone conversations with my ultra-religious mother. Now I can pop them into counter-moves buckets, which makes it less stressful and even a bit satisfying. I can now say, “Oh, I see what you were doing there.”
For years, I felt compelled to JADE—justify, argue, defend, and explain, and I’ve tried to recognize that urge and stop, but just doing that didn’t get to the reason behind why I was compelled to JADE.
I won’t have many new comments to sort now, because after the Thanksgiving visit, I won’t be going back in the foreseeable future. I haven’t called in months, and no one has called me, so.
The traditional Christmas Day lunch instituted by my mom forever ago is planned. Same time. Same place. Same basic menu. I have been notified. I have messaged back that we are having a quiet Christmas this year. That’s all I messaged, and I have gotten no response. No response means that I can have my reasons sorted in my head but no one cares what they are. I’m either in or out, and I’ve chosen out. Yes, it hurts, but I can learn to deal with that hurt in a healthy way.
Thank you for all the effort you’re putting into this project. The way you explain it makes so much more sense than anything else I’ve found.
so glad it's helpful -- and yeah, I think having a framework/labels for counter moves is helpful. And I hope you have a lovely quiet Christmas!
Thank you! I hope you have a lovely week, also!
Thank you as always. Currently trying to navigate this. It never helps to express my perspective, disagreement or boundaries. Because my parents are never wrong because they “hear from God” and are always right. And if I’m upset about something it’s because I’m wrong or I need to fix something. I’m just naturally estranged from them by chosen physical distance and limited communication. I don’t hear from my dad at all, I’m guessing because I don’t think he’s such a great or even good person anymore. I wish it was different so my daughter had healthy grandparents. That’s probably the hardest part. ❤️
oof, yeah the "I hear from god" part is such a power play
TW corporal punishment/spanking of infants
This is so helpful, especially the part about not having to share your process. I don’t know about ya’ll, but I was raised to believe even “white lies,” were egregious, terrible sins, and you had to tell the complete truth about everything, or you were sinning. That has been hard for me to overcome, especially as I often had to find alternative ways to discuss issues I had or to set boundaries.
I would say something like, “I think it’s funny when a parent shushes a one year old, like, lol they’re a baby, they don’t get it,” because expressing how I really felt—terrified for the child, angry, upset, would just get me a lecture about being too sensitive and judgmental—or, “I’m busy with work/can’t leave my dog,” when I didn’t want to go to a church where I’d have to witness corporal punishment of 6+ month old babies excused by everyone in the congregation, and excused by the family with the idea that “some babies deserve spankings.” That still makes me rage thinking about it, tbh.
I did finally lose it and tell my parents exactly how I felt about that church and of course my mom passive aggressively said ok while judging me and accusing me of never wanting to leave my house— though she was also talking to my sister who didn’t want to wear masks when that was mandated so that message could’ve been for her, but I don’t know. So, yeah. Now I just say, I’m busy, and the guilt about my lack of specifics/not telling all the reasons, is getting better.
ETA because they helped me pay for my house—I had to have a co-signer on the loan because…..my student loans or lack of long term credit or something, I don’t remember lol— and because they sometimes come over and drop things off for me, my parents do you have a garage door opener and a key to my house. I will say they have gotten better on their own about not just dropping by unannounced and I don’t really know why because I didn’t say anything to them about it but they have so that’s been nice. They also aren’t as passive aggressive about my dog who I am raising with fear, free and positive reinforcement methods. My mom thinks I just don’t trust my dog not to grab things she shouldn’t have and so I usually end up telling her OK fine when nova gets something that she isn’t supposed to have you can get away from her and in my head, I’m thinking and if nova bites you again what she has before don’t get mad at me because I’m trying to prevent it and you’re acting like I’m crazy this is the same mom who got really mad at nova for biting her when mom ignored nova‘s boundaries and Dad who said that they weren’t gonna drive me anywhere if nova didn’t stop biting my mom so you know. But I’m the crazy one for not trusting them to no longer feel that way about my dog. I don’t know sometimes I think about. changing my locks and recoding the garage door, but I haven’t yet. Maybe one day.
"Enmeshment — or the lack of personal sense of self — was actively encouraged in these families."
I needed to comment bc I've been coming to terms with this more, and I've done some research. This enmeshment is a tell-tale sign of covert incest / emotional incest, in which there's no sexual contact or even physical boundaries being broken neccesarily. It's the similar erosion of emotional boundaries of a responsible party and a child: parents seeking reassurance, discussing financial troubles and giving the child guilt for their needs, expectations of the child to be an emotionally available friend rather than an actual child, etc.
I only bring this up because I was confused and troubled by this behavior but didn't have a word for it. When I was young I knew what my bio parents argued about, who they had gripes with, and felt responsible to be their sounding board. And all this fucked up my ability to make boundaries, understand why/where boundaries should be, and eroded my sense of self because we'd always shared everything with each other. Incest is a tough word to identify with but it makes sense why I have such trouble with these kinds of relationships
yeah, I think enmeshment really goes overlooked, ESPECIALLY in evangelical circles. So glad it's been helpful to dig in to research
Chronic forgetting of boundaries is the main move in my family. Followed by apologies and monologues on their good intentions, occasionally a side of "so these boundaries are STILL important to you then?" It's so hard to call them out on, because punishing an honest mistake makes me feel like the bad guy, and sometimes they try dramatically so it's not like no progress is being made, right? But also, how are you this bad at remembering?